Eric

You're missing the issue entirely. The point is not that McCain's association with Liddy is more important than Obama's with Ayers. The point is that focusing on either is a silly distraction.

What's telling, however, is that only one campaign has decided to make silliness like this the cornerstone of his campaign.

Convicted felon and neo-nazi Liddy has admitted that he admires Hitler: "When he listened to Hitler on the radio, it "made me feel a strength inside I had never known before," he explains. "Hitler's sheer animal confidence and power of will [entranced me]. He sent an electric current through my body." He describes seeing the Nazis' doomed technological marvel the Hindenberg flying over New Jersey as an almost religious experience. "Ecstatic, I drank in its colossal power and felt myself grow. Fear evaporated and in its place came a sense of personal might and power."

Whats more, Liddy is a freak:

He used to take his kids to see Leni Reifenstahl's Nazi propaganda movie 'The Triumph of the Will.' When he was a kid himself, he went to insane ends to test his will-power. He stood in front of approaching trains, telling himself he would not die because "I am a machine too." During lightning storms, in order to demonstrate to himself to power of his will, he would climb onto tall trees and yell, "Kill me! Kill me!" He even trained himself to kill animals in anticipation of becoming a brutal soldier. He describes beheading chickens with glee: "I killed and killed and killed, and finally I could kill efficiently and without emotion or thought. I was satisfied; when it came my turn to go to war, I would be ready. I could kill as I could run -- like a machine."

This neo-nazi fascist freak advocates killing federal agents:

Liddy was condemned even by most of the American right in 1994 when he advised his listeners to deal with agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (a strange, obsessive focus of hate on the American right) with "head shots, head shots ... Kill the sons of bitches ... Shoot twice to the belly and if the does not work, shoot to the groin area. Arm yourself. Get instructed in how to shoot straight. And don't register [your weapons] either." His caller replied, "And I'm aiming between their eyes." Liddy replied, "There you go. That way their flak jackets won't protect them."

And this is the guy you admire? And McCain accepts campaign donations and calls him a friend.

Meyrav

If you're going to quote Liddy, you should supply more than brief extracts gathered by Media Matters.

Again, if you were to read from the source that is being Dowdified (Liddy's autobiography "Will"), you'd know that when Liddy was a child (he was born in 1930), the family had a German maid who loved Hitler, and he'd listen with her on a shortwave radio. His father put a stop to it, replaced the pro-Nazi maid with a German Jewish maid, and disabused his son of any idea that Nazism was a good thing. (He explains why he is not a Nazi at length in the book, and if he were a Nazi I doubt he would have so many Jewish friends or been a repeated guest of the Israeli government.)

Triumph of the Will? The last time I saw it at a theater, it was full of artsy San Francisco types.

As to the ATF, here's the context:

http://www.rightwingnews.com/interviews/liddy.php

***QUOTE***
John Hawkins: Changing directions here, one of the things that people who try to discredit you often bring up is your comment back in 1994, "If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head." What prompted that comment and other similar ones and do you regret giving a caller that advice?

G. Gordon Liddy: Well, no. Because as usual, people remember part of what I said, but not all of what I said. What I did was restate the law. I was talking about a situation in which the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes smashing into a house, doesn't say who they are, and their guns are out, they're shooting, and they're in the wrong place. This has happened time and time again. The ATF has gone in and gotten the wrong guy in the wrong place. The law is that if somebody is shooting at you, using deadly force, the mere fact that they are a law enforcement officer, if they are in the wrong, does not mean you are obliged to allow yourself to be killed so your kinfolk can have a wrongful death action. You are legally entitled to defend yourself and I was speaking of exactly those kind of situations. If you're going to do that, you should know that they're wearing body armor so you should use a head shot. Now all I'm doing is stating the law, but all the nuances in there got left out when the story got repeated.

***END QUOTE***

(Not that any of this would matter to someone who accused me of Nazism....)

Neither Liddy nor his apologists can backpeddle Liddy's unambiguous exhortation to his followers to kill ATF agents.

And remember, Liddy is a convicted felon. He can't be trusted :)

Here's Liddy's original quote:

"Now if the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms comes to disarm you and they are bearing arms, resist them with arms. Go for a head shot; they're going to be wearing bulletproof vests."

--G. Gordon Liddy, radio show, 8/26/94

And this is where he tries to spin his words:

"What I said is, if a federal agent comes knocking at your door-- specifically BATF--says I have a search warrant, open the door, let him in, stand aside and let him search. What I said is, if they come shooting--they're shooting at you now--you have the right to self-defense, and in that event, if they've got a body-protection armor on, you are best to shoot to the groin area."

--G. Gordon Liddy, Crossfire, 4/25/95

Here is the context and transcript of Liddy's fascist screed: ">http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1313>

"If the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms insists upon a firefight, give them a firefight. Just remember, they're wearing flak jackets and you're better off shooting for the head."

Later, after North signed off, Liddy had this exchange with a caller:

Liddy: When the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms thugs come to kill your wife and children, to try to disarm you and they open fire on you. When they come at the point of a gun, force and violence, when you're going to defend yourself, use that Gerand [M-1 rifle]. That thing is 30-06, and it'll take 'em right out.

Caller: And yes, aim for the head.

Liddy: Absolutely.

If Bob Dole, Newt Gingrich or Oliver North missed the Sept. 15 show, the Sept. 6 show would have helped them understand this Republican supporter's character.

Liddy: Arm yourself. Get instructed in how to shoot straight.

Caller: I've got weapons.

Liddy: Absolutely. And don't give 'em up, and don't register either.

Caller: No way. And I'm aiming between the eyes.

Liddy: There you go. That way their flak jackets won't protect them.

The best part is the more you and other right wingers bring up the discredited "palling around with Ayers" smear, the more we have the opportunity to point out the facts that Ayers was bankrolled by Republicans and that neo-nazi fascists like Liddy are close friends of McCain.

There's a nifty spin: the Annenberg Foundation was funded by a Republican, Ayers sat on the board; therefore, Ayers was bankrolled by a Republican.

Apart from the absurdity of that argument, it is not Ayer's work on the Annenberg board that so disgusts decent people. Clearly, nothing done by a lefty will disgust you.

There's a nifty spin...

Spin? Only if it not true.

Unfortunately for the wingnuts, the facts are the following:

Ayers wrote a grant to start an education reform program.

Republican Annenberg, Reagan/Nixon's buddy, accepted the proposal and gave $49.2 millions to Ayers.

Ayers was a celebrity. He attained "respectability" thanks to Republican Annenberg.

Annebergs sent their daughter to deliver the symbolic check for the grant at a ceremony attended by Illinois establishment.

Republicans such as Governor Edgar were all over Ayers for getting so much money from Republican Annenberg.

Unlike Obama who was only 8 when Ayers was a radical, Anneberg, Edgar and other Republicans knew very well or should have known, who Ayers was.

However, Republicans bankrolled Ayers anyways.

Mrs Annenberg has endorsed McSame. Republican Weber who served on the board with Obama has contributed to McSame's campaign.

The convicted felon and neo-nazi fascist Liddy is a close friend of McSame and has given $1000 to his campaign in 2008 alone.

These are the facts. Live with them.

tim

What's truly absurd is the attempts to make Ayers a central issue in this campaign.

The point of all this Ayers/Liddy nonsense is that if you truly want to play the guilt-by-association game, there is no shortage of unsavory characters in McCain's circle of acquaintances. The leaps of logic necessary to marry Obama's and Ayers' ideology can be applied with equally silly results to McCain.

Personally, I think McCain's friendly meeting with Pinochet is quite a bit more important that his close friendship with Liddy, but if Obama tried to make either person a cornerstone of his campaign I would be greatly disappointed. Thankfully, Obama's campaign is quite aware that if the voters go into the booth thinking about the economy, foreign policy, health care or energy, Obama will win.

The problem, obviously, is that with Obama we have so much less to go on. If he had a record, we could focus on that. Unfortunately, Obama has done very little with his life other than consort with radicals and run for office. Someone pointed out yesterday that if Obama gets elected and serves just one term as president, he will have spent more time as POTUS than he has at any other job in his life.

You want to focus on the issues? With Obama, as with very few other major political figures, this is an issue precisely because there is such a dearth of anything else to go on.

tim

"this is an issue precisely because there is such a dearth of anything else to go on."

This might be the most honest (even if unintentionally so) thing I've read in this blog.

Wow, Eric. This must've been a really powerful post to attract so many keystrokes from the paid Obama-trolls. Thank you making Obama spend some of his $600MM on internet trolls dedicated to ClassicalValues.com

If the Liddy comparison is the best that these folks with the Obama-shaped dildos stuck up their assests have got, then they got nothing. Ayers is a communist who wanted to murder 25 million Americans in the name of La Revolucion. Obama worked closely with Ayers to fund La Revolucion en La Educasion in Chicago. Ayers was Obama's patron, his employer, his political benefactor, possibly his ghost writer, and his sex slave.

Well, actually, I made up the "sex slave" part since I want to spend time in a St. Louis hell-hole prison. But it's as truthful as anything these gnat-like Obama-trolls have to say about Sarah Palin!

Let me add:

I really really hate Ayers. And I hate the Obama-trolls who defend him.

Ayers is really the most vile, disgusting sort of '60s radical. He preaches all his revolution crap. But when he gets in trouble because of his perverted ideology, he cried to Daddy. "Daddy daddy (whimper whimper). I need lawyers to get me off." So Daddy pays for the best justice money can buy, lawyers his "radical" son up, and gets the Little Crybaby Radical off scot fee. No wonder he hates America! This country is so biased that the crybaby children of filthy rich white daddies never have to face the consequences of their crimes.

Ayers is beyond the pale disgusting. Obama is disgusting for playing kissing-face with this vile creature. Vote as you see fit.

Rhodium Heart

This has to be a very frustrating time for you and Sean Hannity, what with the electorate more concerned about the economy than William Ayers.

My condolences.

If the economy is the only issue we're allowed to talk about, paid Obama-troll DND, then while the hell are you yipping about G. Gordon Liddy?

Is a little intellectual consistency too much to ask for? Oh, I forget, you've outsourced your capacity for critical thinking to Oprah, Matt Damon, the editorial board of the NY Times, and four out of five Baldwin Brothers. I guess it takes an "intellect" for there to be "intellectual consistency." And your Hollywood-programmed mind can't handle that.

Answer me this, Obama-troll: if the economy is so horrible, and folks hate Bush so much because of it, why is your buddy up only three percent?

Rhodium Heart

"If the economy is the only issue we're allowed to talk about, paid Obama-troll DND, then while the hell are you yipping about G. Gordon Liddy?"

I'm "yipping" about Liddy (and Pinochet, for the record) to demonstrate how intellectually bankrupt it is to try and pretend that William Ayers is or should be a serious issue in this campaign. If that point was too complicated for you to follow, I'd be happy to take it down a level for you and try again. Just let me know.

"why is your buddy up only three percent?"

I don't know, why don't you tell my why you think Obama isn't winning by a large enough margin for your taste?

For what it's worth, I believe most national polls show Obama up in the 5-6 point range, but these numbers are essentially meaningless compared to the state-by-state numbers. Could you take a look at this map, http://pollster.com/, and posit a realistic scenario for McCain to win the election?

And, to clear up your confusion, I'm not sure if you think that accusing me of being a paid Obama operative is an insult, or if you think that my posts are so insightful you just can't imagine anyone doing this for free, but I assure you, I am not being paid by the Obama campaign.*

*or am I?**

**no, I am not

Rhodium et al,

The country has seen how the GOP village idiot and his Darth Vader sidekick have ruined us in the last 8 years.

Economy bankrupted; 401Ks, pensions destroyed; almost 800,000 jobs lost this year alone; median income has gone down; cost of health care has doubled; price of gas has sky rocketed; basic food items are 25%-30% higher in cost.

Stuck in two wars; Iraq was promised to be a cakewalk and be over in 6 weeks.

How much time has passed since the village idiot from Texas, with toilet paper stuck in his flight suit, made his idiotic Mission Accomplished speech?

A lot more than 6 years.

Given all the destruction brought upon us by the GOP, nobody trusts a senile old fool and his Anti-American Secessionist AIP supporting bimbo VP choice to fix what GOP has destroyed.

Obama victory is going to put an end to Lee Atwater-Roger Ailes-Rove smear campaign, once and for all.

Meyrav

I hope the Obama campaign is paying you overtime for your paid trolling work. What a hard day at the office trolling conservative sites just to plant your putrid dementedness.

I bet you dollars to donuts that "Meyrav Levine" is so uneducated that he/she does not even realize the hilarious irony of accusing the Republicans of running a "smear" campaign when he/she/its post is all namecalling: "Village Idiot," "Anti American Secessionist bimbo," "senile old fool." Smear campaign? Look in the mirror if it don't crack, you mindless, drivel-spouting Obama-bot. Ooooo. We're so intimated because your candidate is more cool.

Remember: this country was in pretty good shape 'til the Dems won control of Congress in '06.

I'm done responding. You paid Obama trolls can get the last word on this thread. Only this time, please, something original. Man I'm tired of the astroturfed talking points from the Obama-bots.

PS: The failure to use articles in the line "Obama victory is going to put end to Lee Atwater-Roger Ailes-Rove smear campaign, once and for all." Sound it out. You'd swear this was posted by Boris Badanov's sidekick Natasha.

Meyrav, does your brain cell hurt after spinning like that?

The Democrats caused the financial crisis. Pelosi promised lower gas prices right before they started acting like a one-way flight to Mars.

In fact, all of the bad economic things that you mention are the direct result of Democratic policies.

Or is Barney Frank working for Darth Rove now?

Eric,

Loved it. And to top it off it turns out to be great troll bait. A Twofer.

And for our trollish friends. Only six more days until the money gives out. I'd say you are not working near hard enough. The job ends soon. You need to be putting in 18 hour days to shore up your finances because sharing the wealth is not going to be happening come 20 Jan. 2009. So more comments please. We had a climate thread go to over 100 comments. Eighteen or twenty is nothing.

OTOH with a revival of the animal spirits in the capitalist economy perhaps you can get a real job. Sales of new housing units are up. In CA housing sales are up 60+% year over year.

As in previous threads, Meyrav does not answer questions or points directed at him. He is unable to endure discussion. He just gets louder. Dr. ND interacts a bit more, but reverts to the same form under pressure.

You have both been answered repeatedly. You have not given reasons why those answers are not sufficient, you just repeat variations of the same charge. You have been offered discussion, but have declined the invitation.

I will not treat with either of you again.

Village Idiot et al,

Meyrav does not answer questions or points directed at him...

The fact is you guys don't like the answers:

I only point out the facts that Republicans bankrolled Ayers by accepting his grant for $49.2 millions.

Further, Republicans such as Governor Edgar Weber were all associated with Ayers. Either working with him directly or honoring him as 'Chicago Citizen of the Year '97'.

Not only did Republicans bankrolled Ayers but these same Republcians are now supporting McSame:

Mrs. Annenberg has endoresed McSame, and Weber has contributed $1000 to McSame's campaign.

On top of that, you have convicted, unrepentent felons like Gordon Liddy donating and supporting McSame's campaign.

These are the facts. But when have facts come in the way of a rightwinger's dogma, right?

As for Palin, even leading conservatives like George Will thinks she is a bimbo.

In today's WashingtonPost, Will again disparages Palin and mocks her knowledge of VP's duties.

Palin believes humans and dinosaurs lived together 6000 years ago.

And this is your candidate for VP? LOL

Meyrav
ps: Meyrav is a girl's name derived from Hebrew Merab (name of the daughter of Saul - Old Testament).

Thanks, Meyrav, for the transcript. So on one hand, according to you, Liddy is a Neo-Nazi, but here we have him encouraging citizens to defend their rights against the jackbooted minions of Der Staat. That's an odd brand of Neo-Nazism, wouldn't you say?

Rhodium Heart

You're a rather angry person, aren't you? I hope that after the election you're able to channel some of that negative energy into positive pursuits.

A.V.I.

If there is some question you feel I've been dodging, please point it out and I will be happy to address it. I would also appreciate it if you could point out what "form" I revert to when "under pressure." I've got an evaluation coming up with the Supervisor in Charge of Paid Internet Message Board Commentators - Upper Midwest Division at the Secret Obama Headquarters (Chicago Branch), and I can always use some constructive criticism.

Thanks!

Bilwick,

Liddy, the epitiome of neo-nazi fascism, was acting exactly how a fascist is supposed to behave.

When the government is in the hands of the Democratic party then Liddy exhorts his fellow neo-nazis to disobey the law and even kill law enforcement agents.

But when the government is in the hands of his fellow ideologues such as Nixon, then he wants to undermine the civil society by doing illegal activities as in the Watergate scandal.

Meyrav