A Novel Critique Of Life Prolongation

You may remember that four way debate on life extension over at Cato Unbound between Dan Callahan, Diana Schaub, Aubrey de Grey, and Ron Bailey. Nothing much came of it, except for the revelation that Diana Schaub gets a tad sanctimonious when her back is up.

If deathlessness ever arrives for human beings, I would cast my lot with the elephants who are said to gather and grieve over the bones of their departed. Elephant culture might already have surpassed the culture of immortalists. Based on the posts so far, cultural ignorance -- of the history of religion and love and politics -- is one clear cost of the quest for a non-transcendent immortality.

Huh. I'd wear a cap in her classroom every chance I got.

Oh yeah, Callahan's opinion is pretty much value free. Now there's an old nag that's crying out for pasturing.

I'd hoped for more.

And wouldn't you know it, the universe came through for me. The discussion got picked up over at Volokh's, leading to a truly original insight in the comments section by some guy named Dangermouse. He pretty much set everyone straight on the error of their ways (Bad life extensionists! Bad! Bad!) with an appeal to higher authority that, quite frankly, left me croggled. See, the quest for extended youth is evil and pointless because the Silmarillion tells us so. In the interests of scientific curiosity, I'm reproducing this mangled intellectual cud in its entirety...


This is the Akallabêth all over again. You people need to read more Tolkien:

But the King said: 'And does not Eärendil, my forefather, live? Or is he not in the land of Aman?'

To which they answered: 'You know that he has a fate apart, and was adjudged to the Firstborn who die not; yet this also is his doom that he can never return again to mortal lands. Whereas you and your people are not of the Firstborn, but are mortal Men as Ilúvatar made you. Yet it seems that you desire now to have the good of both kindreds, to sail to Valinor when you will, and to return when you please to your homes. That cannot be. Nor can the Valar take away the gifts of Ilúvatar. The Eldar, you say, are unpunished, and even those who rebelled do not die. Yet that is to them neither reward nor punishment, but the fulfilment of their being. They cannot escape, and are bound to this world, never to leave it so long as it lasts, for its life is theirs. And you are punished for the rebellion of Men, you say, in which you had small part, and so it is that you die. But that was not at first appointed for a punishment. Thus you escape, and leave the world, and are not bound to it, in hope or in weariness. Which of us therefore should envy the others?"

And the Númenóreans answered: 'Why should we not envy the Valar, or even the least of the Deathless? For of us is required a blind trust, and a hope without assurance, knowing not what lies before us in a little while. And yet we also love the Earth and would not lose it.'

Then the Messengers said: 'Indeed the mind of Ilúvatar concerning you is not known to the Valar, and he has not revealed all things that are to come. But this we hold to be true, that your home is not here, neither in the Land of Aman nor anywhere within the Circles of the World. And
the Doom of Men, that they should depart, was at first a gift of Ilúvatar. It became a grief to them only because coming under the shadow of Morgoth it seemed to them that they were surrounded by a great darkness, of which they were afraid; and some grew wilful and proud and would not yield,
until life was reft from them. We who bear the ever-mounting burden of the years do not clearly understand this; but if that grief has returned to trouble you, as you say, then we fear that the Shadow arises once more and grows again in your hearts. Therefore, though you be the Dúnedain, fairest of Men, who escaped from the Shadow of old and fought valiantly against it, we say to you: Beware! The will of Eru may not be gainsaid; and the Valar bid you earnestly not to withhold the trust to which you are called, lest soon it become again a bond by which you are constrained. Hope rather that in the end even the least of your desires shall have fruit. The love of Arda was set in your hearts by Ilúvatar, and he does not plant to no purpose. Nonetheless, many ages of Men unborn may pass ere that purpose is made known; and to you it will be revealed and not to the Valar.'

Settled their hash, didn't he? My condolences if you made it all the way through.

posted by Justin on 04.21.08 at 10:22 AM





TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://classicalvalues.com/cgi-bin/pings.cgi/6519






Comments

So his scripture is a work the author didn't think was fit for publication yet.

James   ·  April 21, 2008 11:07 AM

Surely the obvious argument against life prolongation is the extreme conservatism (in a sociological, not political, sense) with which society would become pervaded?

We already see this in the West, especially in Euroland and Japan.

As (I believe) Heinlein once put it, everybody dies: but not everybody really lives.

David Hecht   ·  April 21, 2008 11:18 AM

Dammit ... my eyes are bleeding from reading that.

Once mankind becomes immortal, it dies.

(now, there is nothing wrong with living a bit longer though ... but let Castro be an example of why we need 'term life limits')

mdmhvonpa   ·  April 21, 2008 01:29 PM

I would have chosen other works of Tolkien - The Silmarillion's style still leaves me cold after many attempts - but I consider dangermouse's point well-taken. In an uncharted area - where we have no frigging idea what the consequences are going to be for our personalities, societies, and families - artists, prophets, and writers are an excellent place to look. Because the novels are fiction and Tolkien ultimately controls the result, we cannot rely on such opinions as definitive or a basis for law. He has thought much about the subject, however, as the theme of immortality or exceeding long life is expressed repeatedly in different characters, each of which has a very different experience of extended years: Gollum, Bombadil, Sauron, or the ents, elves, and wizards all see the passing of the world in different ways. Tolkien was about as thoroughly familiar with the Western Canon as it is possible to be. Its philosophers, writers, historical figures, and traditions informed his decades-long contemplation of this very issue. You might think his conclusions wrong, or prefer the reasoning of others on the subject, but you cannot dismiss him as silly.

I suspect that your antipathy to dangermouse's reasoning is more properly seen as a dislike of the fantasy genre (not that there's anything wrong with that). Fantasy strikes many people as ridiculous, and I don't think there's any way around that. They haven't the taste for it. But until the explosion of pulp fantasy fiction in the 1970's, fantasy literature was a primary ground for the contemplation of deeper issues. Edmund Spenser may come to mind here. Even in children's literature, the complexity of moral questions encountered in Prydain and Narnia utterly swamps anything by Judy Blume.

Assistant Village Idiot   ·  April 21, 2008 01:59 PM

When people tell me I shouldn't do something, that makes me want to do it.
Especially when the thing they tell me I shouldn't want has never been experienced.

And if we're going to use fiction to argue, what about Lazarus Long and Connor McCloud of the Clan McCloud? The lived for a long time and were pretty cool.
But then, vampires seem to make the opposite point.
What about the elves in Tolkein? Sure they're sanctimonious pricks, but they usually don't hurt anyone who doesn't need it. But Tom Bombadil was very cool.
Now I'm all confused, maybe I should not use fictional stories about fictional people doing fictional things to make up my mind.

Of course, I want to live a long time. I'm curious to see where we're headed and I would really like to not die on the Earth.

Veeshir   ·  April 21, 2008 02:59 PM

The thing is, we don't know for sure what would happen if we had a society full of deathless people, or if that's even possible. As far as we know in terms of fact, every person that has been born has died, or will die. We may be able to prolong life quite a bit now, and perhaps more in the future, but we still have to reconcile ourselves to our mortal nature. And our mortal nature is this: not merely that we do die, but that we can die. Even if we hold death from natural causes at bay, there is still enough potential for accidents, murder, or simply world-weariness to get each of us eventually.

I'm really not sure where I'm going with this... but perpetual life-extension seems like an unknown that has a lot of unpleasant possibilities. Be prepared for some unexpected consequences.

John S.   ·  April 21, 2008 04:37 PM

Post a comment

You may use basic HTML for formatting.





Remember Me?

(you may use HTML tags for style)



April 2008
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
    1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30      

ANCIENT (AND MODERN)
WORLD-WIDE CALENDAR


Search the Site


E-mail

escheie_[AT]_yahoo_DOT_com




Classics To Go

Classical Values PDA Link

What ancient form of execution would you LEAST prefer?
Buried alive
Crucifixion
Flayed alive
Scourged to death
Stung/bitten to death by insects
Slow disembowelment
Roasted on grill
Dragged from chariot
Torn apart by wild beasts
Rolled downhill inside spiked barrel
Death of a thousand cuts
  
Free polls from Pollhost.com


Archives




Recent Entries



Links



Alphecca (My Blogdaddy)



Puff the Protector


Andrew Sullivan

Gays in Military Site

Middle East Media Research Institute

Gay Libertarian Site
The Bitch Girls
Join the NRA!


SECOND AMENDMENT VIDEO!

Shooters' Carnival

Tammy Bruce
Gun Owners of America
goalogox.gif

front_cover.jpg
KerryCom.gif
fighting101sSm.jpg
David Hackworth
ElectricVenom.com
SgtStryker.com
Hell In A Handbasket
Matt Welch
The Volokh Conspiracy
Virginia Postrel
PseudoPsalms
The Light of Reason
The Anger of Compassion
Anger Management
Dustbury.com
Rachel Lucas
Shadow Government
reflections in d minor
JustOneMinute
Boone Country
Catallarchy
Roger L. Simon Button
Agenda Bender
Mike Silverman
Steven Malcolm Anderson
Walter in Denver
Impearls
Donald Sensing
Howard Owens
Loco Parentis
imao15.jpg
Colby Cosh
VodkaPundit
Radley Balko
Dean's World
The Queen of All Evil
baldilocks
Joe Gandelman
Dave Tepper
Begging to Differ
Kesher Talk
Jeff Jarvis
Doc Searls
Little Green Footballs
Captain Ed
Oh, That Liberal Media!
ICANNfocus.org
God of the Machine
Sandefur's Freespace
Wizbang
Robert Prather
LawPundit
adrcircle.jpgThe Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler
Amygdala
bilious young fogey
MadLab
On the Fritz
why dave bergman is neat
Skiplog
Clowning Glory
Dispatches from the Culture Wars
Where in Washington, D.C. is Sun Myung Moon?
Anti-Socialist Tendencies
Of Interest
WICKED THOUGHTS
Setting The World To Rights
doubleplusgood infotainment
It Can't Rain All The Time
Scrutineer
Nick Danger, International Man of Mystery
seldom sober
TRITICALE
Random Jottings
Graham Lester
point2point
Shark Blog
Gene Healy
Discount Blogger
Six Foot Pole
Dodgeblogium
Across the Atlantic
The Imperialist Dog
Lex Talionis
Mind Of Mog
Say Uncle
CAMPVS MAWRTIVS
res gestae dionysii
Annika's Journal & Poetry
A :{FRUSTRATED}: ARTIST
Yet another weird SF fan
Lincoln Cat
The Meatriarchy
Who is Ronald?
Short Daddy
Punch Drunk
Mookie Riffic
On The Third Hand
MatthewEdgar.net
ZenPundit
Jennifer's History and Stuff
blogcrit-button.gif
argghhh!!!
Modulator
D.C. Thornton
Centerfield
Asymmetrical Information
Airline Pilots Security Assn
Relapsed Catholic
PAPADOC
Abraca-Pocus
The Pryhills
Winds of Change
Daily Pundit
The Speculist
Regnum Crucis
The Elfin Ethicist
Classics in Contemporary Culture
elephant-rabbits
A Perfectly Cromulent Blog
allied
Parableman
Southern Musings
CALIFORNIA YANKEE
Allen's Arena
Ex-Gay Watch
Jonno
Michael Moore doesn't love me!
Eschaton
Clayton Cramer
Letters From a Strip of Dirt
Oliver Willis
Hesiod Theogeny
Dr Zen
JunkYardBlog
Orcinus
Ideofact
Letter from Gotham
Oraculations
INCITE
Positive Liberty
ALLAH IS IN THE HOUSE
Tiny Little Lies
My So-Called Penis
Keith Devens
Jason Holliston
W(h)ine Country
Straight White Guy
Ken MacLeod
Lawrence Lessig
solomonia.com/blog/
PaleoJudaica.com
EdCone.com
Common Sense and Wonder
Who knew?
Daily Howler
James Landrith
Chief Wiggles
L.T. Smash
damnum absque injuria
Daniel W. Drezner
OxBlog
Reason of Voice
Steven Den Beste
Wonkette!
Cranial Cavity
Gibberish in Neutral
DramaQueen
vivalabloog
Classics in Contemporary Culture
The LLama Butchers
flvbutton.gif
HobbsOnLine
ACIDMAN
Sector 7-G
Zogby Blog
mtpolitics.net
Horologium
Civic Dialogues
Practical Penumbra
Right Wing News
Stranger in a Strange Land
Ambient Irony
Tiger: Raggin' & Rantin'
Read My Lips
Jay Solo
The Alliance
The Smallest Minority
Wrong Side of Happiness
Wince and Nod
One Little Victory
Fishbucket
suburban blight
Sketches of Strain
Boi from Troy
Being American in T.O.
Outside the Beltway
One Fine Jay
Bill and Kent's Place on the Web
Burton Terrace
This Book Stinks
The Happy Carpenter
Political Correctness Watch
GREENIE WATCH
Resource.full
This Liberal"
Brainville
BLAMBLOG
Ordinary Galoot
QandO
Josh Cohen
Extra Ordinary Ideas
brykMantra
Croooow Blog
Old Right
commiewatch
Yourishweb.jpg
Proculian Meditations
UggaBugga
Dustin the No-Longer-Blogless
Les Jones Blog
Temporal Globe
Postcards from Nowhere
Tarazet
Unfogged
Synthstuff
Riba Rambles
Mitch Berg
The National Debate
scha-den-freu-de
Ocean Guy
Topic Exchange
CELESTIAL OFFERINGS
Texas Native
Somewhere over the Rainbough
Why read this?
End NPR Bias
Ace of Spades HQ
Web Dawn
GANGSTORIES
Sheila Astray's Redheaded Ramblings
Alan Sullivan (Seablogger)
hobbyblog
activistchat.com/blogiran/
FuturePundit.com
Tim Blair
A Voyage To Arcturus
HipperCritical
BarlowFriendz
Jihad Watch
Kin's Kouch
Bad Money
The Campblog
News Junkie Canada
De Doc's Doings
Bigwig
Eject!Eject!Eject!
Tom's Nap Room
A Coon Cat's World
The sexual adventures of Woodie and Peaches
Crystalline Ceramics Web Resource
Heh. Indeed.
NakedVillainy.com
Andrew David Chamberlain
The Karmic Inquisition
Adam Smith Institute Weblog
Andrea Harris
Hi. I'm Black
Banana Oil
Jim Miller on Politics
Who Tends the Fires
Ranck and File
MOLOTOV COCKTAIL FRANK
NOLI IRRITARE LEONES
Miss O'Hara
deadmaus
Coffee With Rhoads
robot guy
Travelling Shoes
Admiral Quixote's Roundtable
danm.us
The Argus
Dissecting Leftism
Dissecting Leftism -- OLD Site
Aaron's cc
Commentariat
The Argus - Registan
INDC Journal
Pundit Ex Machina
DeMythology
Peppermint Tea
Gilly's World
Beyond the Black Hole
La Shawn Barber"
FREE IRAN NEWS button
Perverse Access Memory
Invisible Adjunct
Photon Courier
Intel Dump
Junkscience.com
The SmarterCop
Laban Tall
Banagor
Peeve Farm
Rand Simberg
camedwards.com
Kim du Toit
Mrs. du Toit
Dancing with Dogs
Two--Four
Heretical Ideas
Astonished Head
Outlandish Josh
Central Oregon for Dean
ghostofaflea.com
The White Peril 白禍 (Sean Kinsell)
www.blktlr.com
Subterranean Bungalo
DFMoore
Dave Halliday
Well Versed
Qoheleth 60: Joel Moody's Repository
quo vado
jonrowe.blogspot.com
yellopad
Sticks of Fire
Dissecting Leftism
ByteMagick
Blogs of War
PRESTOPUNDIT
Of Interest
The Meatriarchy
Bernhardt Varenius
The Forager
Miller?s Time
Blogs of War
painting to stay (?) sane
Blue Goldfish | Surface
Clowning Glory
House of Payne International
Last Chance Caf馬t;/a>
Psychology of Leftism
a_sdf
CONSERVATISM/RIGHTISM
Taylor & Company
The Vicious Circle
Leftists as Elitists
Eye of the Storm
A scratch area
Wicked Thoughts
Filtrat
The Bayou City Perspective
The Belfry Blogger
Setting The World To Rights
Ljonn.com
Oddly Normal
Varifrank
Jamie Jamison on Technology
GayPatriot
A New York Escorts Confessions
jamescalvin.com
The Eleven Day Empire
Dr. Rusty Shackleford
Eric's Grumles Before The Grave
Belmont Club
Gumbo Pie
BeldarBlog
MooreThoughts
Blind Adherence
Last One Speaks
Logic Monkey
Bird's Eye View
DIRTY WATER
Forgadring
precision-guided cowboy
Punditmania
Minor Thoughts
Just Askin'
HispaLibertas
Let's Try Freedom
Megan McArdle
Ann Althouse
Beautiful Atrocities
Sean Hackbarth
Power and Control
Professor Bainbridge
Power Line
Dialogic
Darleen's Place
I'm N.O. Pundit!
Done With Mirrors
AMERICAN FUTURE
CodeBlueBlog
Gay Orbit
Urthshu
Zacht Ei
Interested-Participant
blake taylor
The Anchoress
Freespeech.com
Spiked
Decision '08 (Mark Coffey)
White Lightning Axiom: Redux
The Big Picture
Rachel Lucas BEI
John Cole
Haight Speech
evolution: on the loose
Moderates of all Nations, Unite!
Jeff Gannon
THE GLEESON BLOGLOMERATE
Pajama Pundits
Centerpiece
The Radical Centrist
Lab-Tested
FreedomSight
AmbivaBlog
evolution
Marx & Friends in their own words
Elective Application
Religion Research Islam Blog
YOUNGPUNDIT.COM
{finding peace in the chaos}
IQ & PC -- By Chris Brand
Classics in Contemporary Culture
Morse's Code
A&W
Bench Marx
Julie Neidlinger
Shades of Gray
The Daily Lion: NeoLibertarianism on a Stick
Miller's Time
Centerpiece
This Liberal
Coming Anarchy
Lay Lines
that'sRich
the blog eclectic
booklore
Yankee Madmen
Jesusland Expatriate
Amazing Motor Girls
Spiced Sass
Decline and Fall of Western Civilization
Modern Crusader
MaroonBlog
Skriblerier, etc.
I am partially fused with infinity
Eros Colored Glasses
Bill Peschel: The man comes around
The Twins Tell the Truth
wickens.ca
The War of Ideas
ConsterNations
EaglesUp Blog
Vitriolics Anonymous
DIRTY WATER
Mean Mr. Mustard 2.0
EDUCATION WATCH
THE RIGHT SCALE
AIS Knight Hammer
SOCIALIZED MEDICINE
The Argus
DON'T BE DUMB!
Blue Goldfish | Surface
GUN WATCH
De Docs Institute for Memetic Engineering And Polymaths...
Wordpress Test Weblog
Kapowie Zone
Political Theory: Weblogs
You know, they say...
all blogged down
Harkonnendog
Big Dirigible
GeoPoliticalreview.com
Coyote Blog
Blog Retrofuturistic
VietPundit
JasonColeman.com
Logical Meme
Bloggledygook
Discursive Recursions
Bird's Eye View
Right Wing Nut House
ELEMENOHPEE
Locusts and Honey
Moonbattery
The Everlasting Phelps
Mythusmage Opines
The Cassandra Page
Of Arms & the Law
The Daily Bork
Strange Stuff
Another Gay Republican
Libertarian Man of Mystery
Liberty Just In Case
TalkLeft
Joe's Dartblog
Iowa Hawk
The Common Room
Darth Vader
Gay Bipolar Republican
Boxing Alcibiades
Baby TrollBlog
Strange Fictions
Urban Hermit
The Eye of Polyphemus
Toe In The Water
Bryan's Basement
Fishkite
Right on the Left Coast
Beltway Buzz
pike speak
Scared Monkeys
The Mudville Gazette
Matt Sheffield
Undercaffeinated
Trey Jackson
NashvilleFiles.com
Moonbat Central
Dust my Broom
The Cliffs of Insanity
Riding Sun
The Modo Blog
Philly Future
philly
Off In The Tall Weeds
Doug Petch.Com
Gays for Life
the True Nature of Reality
Spinning Clio
Mike Huckabee President 2008
A.E.Brain
that rogueclassicist guy
A M㯠Invisí¶¥l
Constantly Risking Absurdity
Laurence Simon
Notes & Musings
A World of Speculation
Weird Events
Pit Bull Wars
New World Man
Mark in Mexico
The Palmetto Pundit
All Things Jen(nifer)
Generic Confusion
Justus for All
iHillary
Michael Totten
Don Surber
Maggie's Farm
Unpaid Punditry Corps
The Counter Hippie
Kicking On Doors
FunnyBusiness
Restless Mania
Mark Tapscott
nobody sasses a girl in glasses
Letters from the Bostonian Exile
The Education Wonks
Diana Hseih
just muttering
Right-Wing of the Gods
Michelle Malkin
Inside Larry's Head
Ballpoint Wren
A Blog For All
The Liberal Wrong
American Outlook
Splog Reporter
From the Grand Stand
Tinabell
Affordable Housing Institute
mudphud
Living In The Past
Searchlight Crusade
Gus Van Horn
Ian Schwartz
One Billion Red Chinese and a Dog Named Liberty
Suburban Bourgeois
The Metropolis Times
DR. HELEN
Philadelphia AIDS Thrift
Sir Humphrey's
Birth Story
The Simplest Thing
Blue Star Chronicles
One Stack Mind
Cathy Young
Neocon Express
A A R D V A R K
World Climate Report
Apartment 604
Yelling at the Windshield
Kimdergarten/
ShrinkWrapped
The Bear Cave
X marks the blogspot
CARRY ON AMERICA
Jim Rose
Kiril, The Mad Macedonian
Signal 94
Pseudo-Polymath
The International Libertarian
Gates of Vienna
California Sojourn
The Liberty Papers
Barcepundit
A. Jacksonian
Jon Swift
Tim Maguire
Three Sticks
Asymmetric
Dog Politics
OregonGuy
Little Miss Attila
Buuuuurrrrning Hot
AGENT BEDHEAD
Tygrrrr Express
David Harsanyi
Snowflakes in Hell
Earnest Iconoclast
Eternity Road
Musings of the GeekWithA.45
Total Survivalist Libertarian Rantfest
Argue With Everyone Political Forum
Nathan J. Winograd
Assistant Village Idiot
Parkway Rest Stop
Grouchy Old Cripple
Technicalities
Coalition of the Swilling
TigerHawk
Mary Madigan
Sad Old Goth
Erica Sherman
Joated

Ezra Levant
Kathy Shaidle
Free Dominion
Small Dead Animals
Habitation of Justice
GAYS DEFEND MARRIAGE
IEC Fusion Technology Blog
John Bambenek
Adventures in Existence
The Discerning Observer
Economists for McCain
The Truth Laid Bear
Socrates' Academy
jpfoUSA.gif
Armed and Dangerous

SupportDenmarkSmall2EN.png
holocausthp.jpg

Vin Suprynowicz


Tongue Tied
Link to Samizdata - please save the button to your own 

server

My Watergate Blog

rhino_sm.jpg



pj-button-04.gif

The Neolibertarian Network

BUMPERBANstupsm_1_.jpg



Syndicate this site (XML)







Blogroll Classical Values!

Search Popdex:


Pssst!

Wanna get on the Classical Values blogroll?

linkhead.gif Don?t bang your head!

Please send me an email and let me know, because although I try to keep up, sometimes I have trouble finding every last link.



Site Credits



classicalvalues.com

classicalvalues.com

(Link buttons)