Isn't the real point that Iraq was a secular country before we invaded it?

Iraq was an Arab Nationalist Socialist country that was suppressing conventional Islam at home,encouraging a form of emasculated Islam at home ( like the Soviet Orthodox Church under Stalin)and aiding the radical Islamacist terrorists abroad. That clear it for you Alphie?

cubanbob,

Let me add in case Alphie has not been paying attention to the news.

1. Is Sadr secular?
2. Is Sistani secular?

Which points to the fact that although nominally secular it has a strong religious component. You know Alphie, like the Reich Wing in America. Like that fine upstanding church goer Obama. Only way more fundamentalist without the live and let live (we will annoy you) tendencies of America.

Alphie is our resident expert on surrendering Iraq to the fanatics and cutting lose the people who have trusted us to help them make their country a go.

He is not prejudiced in the least. He just has a very low opinion of Arabs and believes they are incapable of improvement.

Nice, M.

Exactly what percentage of Iraqis have "trusted us to help them make their country a go?"

'Bout the same percentage of Palestinians who have trusted Israel to make their country a go, I'd guess.

Maybe 5%, tops.

The ones we bribe.

Are you telling me every one who voted in an Iraqi election was bribed alphie?

But I know your type. You are one of those lefties who think self government is only for white people. Lucky you aren't a racist eh?

Gore said in 1988 that his experience in Vietnam:

"...didn't change my conclusions about the war being a terrible mistake, but it struck me that opponents to the war, including myself, really did not take into account the fact that there were an awful lot of South Vietnamese who desperately wanted to hang on to what they called freedom. Coming face to face with those sentiments expressed by people who did the laundry and ran the restaurants and worked in the fields was something I was naively unprepared for."

I guess it is something you are not prepared for either, eh alphie?

You know. I pity the Dems in this coming election I really do. It will be a blow out. Why? Because there are more Americans that believe self government is good for the world not just the white world than there are people like you alphie. The Democrats have become a party of craven small minded people. A party that would throw their grandma under the bus to win an election. Americans notice these things.

Geez, M.

The people of Palestine voted overwhelmingly for Hamas to run their country. Why aren't they in charge today?

And now the Christian militia known as the U.S. military is gunning down the political opponents of their puppet in Iraq.

Please don't pretend you believe in actual democracy for the Middle East.

As for Puddin' Head McCain's chances in November...I'll be happy to stop posting if he somehow manages to win...if you'll stop posting if he loses.

Bet?

Iraq had a secular government, at least until 1990 when Saddam Hussein made a big show of religious fervor by adding "Allah Akbar". That does not mean that the Shia, and to a lesser extent, the Sunni were not just as devout, only that any extremeism was kept in check, unless it was condoned by Saddam's regime.

Iraq is not like WWII, or Vietnam, the closest parallel that I can think of is Yugoslavia before and after Tito. Another strong man who kept that lid on things, his death also allowed factions to strive for power. People who think that we can just leave Iraq should remember the Yugoslavian bloodshed of 1991-1995.

In the long run, I don't think this a sign of burgeoning apostasy amongst young Iraqi Muslims, but if it means a rejection of extremism, that's all to the good

Oh how cute! You guys feed your local troll.

You know that trolls only get stupider when fed, right?

I am sure that alphie came here willing to engage in a discussion in which all participants are willing to change their positions if the evidence and reasons demand it. Alphie neither came here to parrot overused arguments nor to begin from the assumption that he is right and everyone else is wrong. Furthermore, it seems that alphie is both well-informed and a seasoned debater. Recognizing these self-evident truths, I am going to log off and spend my weekend developing a well-researched and logically presented argument to engage in rational discourse with alphie. This will surely be enlightening and rewarding. I look forward to returning to this thread on Monday and engaging in rational, thoughtful, and productive discourse with a mental giant who is surely worth my time.

On an unrelated note, the sarcasm key on my keyboard keeps sticking. Should I just throw out the keyboard and buy a new one?

iconoclast,

Alphie is our pet troll here. I love feeding him because he exemplifies the characteristics Joe has so graciously pointed out.

He loves making a fool of himself and I love watching. I know it is kind of perverse but, fun is where you find it. ;-)