Great post. But why the silence from our social conservative friends?

Do I have to write a long, whining post complaining about how tired I am of this issue?

One suspects you're trolling us, Eric. We've taken you guys out, beaten your arguements down, and it seems better to find another blog where reality has more of a hold.

Oh, and Eric, yes, your eating pork is an imposition on those Peta nuts who think a pig is a dog is a bird is a boy. That's incredibly obvious. You should have seen that reply coming from ninety miles away. So why didn't you?

You continue to protest 'it makes no sense', but logic is logic.

Simon,

You think you hear God. But God is not going to tell you to disobey his revealed way in the Holy Scriptures. Perhaps, this spirit you hear is not God, but Moloch.

When Elijah faced down the prophets of Baal (sp?), would you be with God and Elijah, or with the four hundred prophets of the Establishment, futilely slashing their arms to get their god to hear them?

In the future, good chance that children will be taught that the Southern Fireeaters, the KKK, and the Pro-Aborts were all hardline Democratic radicals dedicated to the proposition that one man could own another man, and use him as a chair. In 1860 it was blacks, in 1960 it was babies, and in 2060, it will be clones. But the same evil exists, just in different clothes.

Let us examine what happens in a Pro-life and Pro-Babykiller Moral System.

In Life, let's say a thousand women get back alley abortions. Of them, say, thirty percent have serious problems, and some die. All the babies die.

In Babykiller, a hundred thousand women get abortions and five percent have serious problems. Some can't have another child, others hear their child calling for them in the night, others die. All the hundred thousand babies die, including the few that survive having their head squashed as they try to avoid it with stainless steel forceps. They're put it out to die of exposure if they survive.

5% of a hundred thousand woman...500 seriously damaged women vs. 300.

Now the numbers are made up, but the idea is clear. You kill more woman under a pro-abortion stance than you do under a back alley system.

And the back alley system is kind of its own warning. "This is dangerous and scary" whereas the abort houses tell women 'no big deal', but it is a big deal. Guilt, depression, barrenness, and death are big deals.

Go ahead and pipe the deguello. You tell the pro-lifers to sit in the back of the bus, or you, Simon, will...gasp...join the Socialists.

Well, seeya'.

Tenn,

You have no idea. I was raised as an Orthodox Jew. You know. Like Jesus.

And the specific rule is that "let your conscience be your guide". I took them up on it. Say. Wasn't that the position of Jesus?

I have had a number of Jewish friends tell me that this was the best short exposition on the Jewish religion they had ever read. Perhaps you might like to learn something.

A Pagan Resurrection

And tenn,

Because of 1 million abortions a year you want to put the government in charge of 150 million vaginas?

Do you really trust the government with your mate's vagina? TSA much? Of course you could be so stupid that you can't figure out how to stop abortion without government guns.

And BTW how is that stopping drug use thing coming along? They are prohibited aren't they?

Tenn,

I hope your mate and daughter get the full up vagina inspection. Weekly. So they will be discouraged from having an abortion.

I don't have to do a thing. Just let you get your way and watch the revolt. Good luck with that.

Yes, I'm the troll here, at my own blog, because I disagree with commenters. I love it!

And libertarianism is statism!

This stuff is better than Postmodernism.

T if you want to get serious, you should explain how my pork eating -- more specifically my desire to be left alone from those who would stop me -- imposes on anyone. (Meaning any human being in the normal sense of the word, not some bizarre construct of Peter Singer.)

Saying that certain activists (or certain religious fanatics) do not like it and want to stop me from doing it does not mean that I am imposing on them, for I am not requiring them to do anything. Their not liking what I do no more means they are being imposed upon than I would be if I disliked my neighbor's taste in wallpaper.

Francis Schaeffer talked about the 'leap of faith' and the neat and very bad thing about it....it could take you anywhere including some very bad places.

Conscience is good, but so is, in addition, checking to see if the spirit you worship is worthy of worship. And one way to do that is to examine history. God has been revealing Himself through history.

Its not a bad idea if an angel appears to you to ask it for credentials, and to examine its claims against what we already know of God.

Jesus's rule was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, and your soul, and your neighbor as yourself.

And because of how many people get murdered every year, you want to stop the police investigating murders because they might inconvenience, or even abuse the innocent at times? Quite lame arguement, dude.

As I said before, the hate is strong with this one. Please, Most High, bless M. Simon, give him good days, and sweet nights in his private life.

Eric, I don't know how to explain it better than I have. Its completely clear what I've said about imposing morality. You don't like it, and you think its ridiculous, but you can't beat it so you huff and puff in a courteous fashion.

I'm reminded of the Lefties who early in Bush's first term kept saying 'well, he didn't convince me that time, maybe he ought to try a little harder'. Um, no.

Not my job to convince you. My job is to present the truth as best as I can. What you choose to do with it is up to you.

Tenn,

I'm going to reproduce a letter I just sent to a friend. Hate? You don't know me. At all. And I check the voice at all times. The advice is unfailingly good. Beginning with being told to start a family (at once - well it took me 3 months to be sure - the voice got louder over time - I was 38 at the time, the first mate 34 - I am very pleased with the outcome - I insisted she come up stairs with me. We got busy. Both of us felt the spark of new life. I hadn't even fully "finished". It was in truth a miracle.) You don't know me.

Anyway. A letter to a friend:

====

I am positive you and those of similar opinions (lots of them in my inbox) mean well. But you are a one level thinker.

"If the government with my party in power did xxx we would have a much better country."

You fail to take it to the second level. What could be done when a party not in power gets control and that party did not have the best interests of the country at heart. Like the current soon to be partly replaced regime. What could an evil party do with the precedent? We see that already with Raich. Wickard was on the way to being overturned (Lopez - gun free school zones case) and then Scalia let his social conservatism overcome his reason. And now Raich will be used to justify the Health Care Abomination. Be very careful what you wish for.

Why are engineers mostly libertarians? Because they take second and third order effects into account as a matter of course. "I designed this for a household environment. What happens when it is used in a leaky garage. Or a steamy bathroom?"

You are thinking optimum environment. A mistake made by rookie engineers. It takes seasoning to get an engineer think at all times about what could go wrong.

So yeah. Banning abortion sounds like a good thing. But humans are involved. American humans. A notoriously obstreperous species. They are famous for circumventing laws they don't like. One of the reasons Alcohol Prohibition failed.

Look up Ron Paul on abortion. He is as prolife as it gets. And yet he thinks that at least the Feds ought to stay out of it. And if the Feds stay out of it you can only affect it at the margins because people will travel. And groups (above ground or below ground) will come in to provide funds to the indigent.

Once you allow government into women's vaginas how could that precedent be used for mischief? I can think of lots of ways. Even on the State level. TSA cavity screening for instance. Or something that will come up when 200+ million are thinking of the subject. It only takes one - and then it goes viral.

Why not contact http://www.rockfordprolife.com/ and tell them the Simon family sent you. My mate and I are friends with some of the members. Find out their program. Repeat it where you live. And get a secular version going too for those who are not religiously affiliated. So much to be done while you waste your time fighting with me. Why do I fight back? I worry about unintended consequences.

And think of it. Do you really want women who don't want children reproducing? Darwin in action. In a generation or three and certainly ten we will have women with very strong reproductive urges. Micro evolution in action. Cold? Yes. But the problem is self solving over time if you avoid meddling. We see it already when it comes to lefties. Those are the folks (mostly) having abortions. They have no children to "teach". You want them reproducing? Why?

Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake.

You are not my enemy. Thus my intervention.

"Never interfere with your enemy when he is making a mistake."

Indeed.

Thing is, even if they succeed in outlawing abortion, it's still going to go on. Except among the poor, who won't be able to afford them easily. (I speak as someone who was a teenager - middle class - BEFORE Roe v Wade - no, I never needed one, but I knew a number who did. And they all got one - and not back in alleys, either.) All that Roe v. Wade really did was make them more affordable for the poor. The rich got 'd&c for polyps' from their own doctors - they never had any problems at all with 'legal' abortions. The middle class found sympathetic (and quite sterile) doctors to do much the same.

The State is based on the power of violence. It is at best benign, and more likely corrupt and evil.

Whatever morality you entrust to The State will be corrupted. Whatever power you hand it will be turned against you.

The pendulum always swings.

... and those who would bring forth evil push it back and forth, moving it ever deeper into our lives with each swing.

M. Simon,

You are so much smarter than me. Why it never, ever occurred to me until you enlightened me...after Sarah Palin and the Theocrats (sounds like a rock band) force America on to the right path with machine guns, we'd have another election some time, and the Democrats might win. And if they did, they'd have the machine guns.

Wow.

You're so smart.

I'm not worthy.

In fact, and here's the thing. I've decided to become a Liberal. Why every Liberal says 'We're smart cause we went to an Ivy League, and you didn't, so shut up stupid person.'

I realize they're right.

I am stupid. I should shut up in the presence of my betters when they make brilliant arguements I can't understand. Now my simplistic attempts at logic and common sense might seem to rip those eggheads into shreds, might even reveal they are not that smart, but hey, that's only because I'm so dumb.

If I were smarter, I would understand how much smarter they are than me.

Tenn,

I can't wait until you get your laws passed and the government begins inspecting your mate's vagina or your daughter's for signs of abortion.

When that happens you will let me know how it is working out for you.

BTW I'm no liberal. I'm a libertarian. And what do libertarians know that you don't? There are some things that you can't accomplish no matter how many guns you have behind you. Like Alcohol Prohibition. Just to give an example that your limited bandwidth might be able to parse.

Letter To A Friend

My reaction to the allegedly-Jewish position on abortion is to regard it as an attempt to convert me Christianity. I ignore all such attempts.

I believe the government must do something about abortion. That does not mean I believe the government must do everything about abortion. Similarly, I believe the government must do something about other crimes but I'm not in favor of gun control.

M.Simon,

Let me make it crystal clear. I already knew you're a Libertarian, but just like Liberals, you're making the argument they prefer.

"I'm smarter than you, see my shiny credential, now shut up."

You have to assume I'm way dumber than you, dumber than is reasonable to assume, or otherwise your worldview is threatened. This is what drives you to these hateful statements. Either that, or you're trying to intimidate me by being disgustingly rude.

These are again, the ways a Liberal acts (and indeed many Liberals don't stoop to this.)

I think an apology is in order.

Tenn,

No dear I'm not a Libertarian. I'm a libertarian Republican. A pragmatist.

I don't like black markets. I think they are bad for society.

I'll give you a dose from my latest. It won't even cost you a click.

Social Conservatives thrive on prohibitions. So do criminals. Makes ya wonder sometimes don't it?

And let me get this. If I learned arithmetic from a libertarian teacher it would be suspect because it is the same arithmetic the communist teacher teaches?

Say aren't you falling into a trap here. An argument stands or falls on its merits. Not who teaches.

In any case aren't libertarians socially liberal and fiscally conservative?

So if I'm going with the "liberal" argument that is some big diss? My attitude? Thanks for the compliment.

I believe the government must do something about abortion. That does not mean I believe the government must do everything about abortion.

Care to enunciate a line at which the effort should stop? And suppose the effort fails. Won't more efforts be required.

What should be done about a RU-486 black market? Another one for the drug dealers.

How about menstrual extraction parties? Just do a search. The instructions are not hard to find. Kits are described.

Wouldn't it be easier just to convince women not to do it? Rather than adding another set of enforcers to the government. Wouldn't that offer a better protection of your liberties?

These people think so.

Rockford Pro Life

Should we legalize murder? That would eliminate the black market for hitmen.

As someone who views abortion as murder, it is a prohibition we should have, like we do for other forms of murder. If your mom aborted you Simon, you wouldn't be around dividing the foes of socialism again with this topic.

As a libertarian that is for human rights, I can never support the selfish, barbaric, evil act of abortion. The rights of the future human are important too.

AP,

As Kathy Kinsley points out:

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2010/11/letter-to-friend.html

Your methods will only create a black market. What is your point?

Social Conservatives thrive on prohibitions. So do criminals. Makes ya wonder sometimes don't it?

This too bears repeating:

I did an informal survey among the "abortion is murder crowd" and the consensus was: misdemeanor manslaughter and the woman goes free.

That doesn't sound like murder to me.

BTW according to Kathy Kinsley (near the bottom):

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2010/11/letter-to-friend.html

The utopia you dream of can't be obtained even by a liberal application of government guns. You must know this. So what is the point? My guess? Getting women back under control.