What would happen if everyone who drinks alcohol on a daily basis began consuming cannabis or popping lsd instead of beer or red wine? A safer, healthier society? Really?! I've tried both drugs and find it quite hard to believe that they should be safer than alcohol if used on a daily basis. Those scientists sure are a wise lot...

CMN,

You used LSD daily? I find that hard to believe. Reports I have read say you don't get any effect after a few days of continuous LSD use.

As to safer. Why not read the book? It seems to correspond with what the gentlemen are saying.

A wise man once said- rehab is for quitters.

I knew a few people who took LSD daily for a long time back in the late 70s/early 80s.

My cousin and his friend did for most of a summer. They had to take like 15 hits after a while, they said normally 1 would have been enough.
They were pretty stupid that summer.
Another guy took it every day for longer than a year (I don't know how long, he was a friend of a friend), that was one stupid guy.

Talking to him was a waste of time.

I've known both heavy drug addicts and alcoholics.
Neither action is pretty.

I should mention I grew up about 13 miles from Woodstock, NY.
While that wasn't where the concert was, it's where the hippies moved, bought their Volvos, Saabs or Subarus and raised their kids.
Well, the uncool hippies, the cool ones lived in Bearsville, which is right next to Woodstock and where I have family.

Here's a question for the pro-druggers. Suppose that all drugs were made legal, would this not create an insentive for pharmaceutical companies to create highly addictive drugs?

rick, you mean like crack or heroin?

You can't save people from themselves.

Veeshir,

I would prefer to say that you can't keep people from self medicating:

Is Addiction Real?

One of my best friends is dead because he did drugs, my father's family are all serious alcoholics.

My friend went to rehab a couple times, one time he got drugs somehow, the other time they couldn't so they snorted instant coffee and when they had a free 15 minutes the cross country runner ran to the liquor store.
When he got out the last time he was on methadone. He would save up a week's worth and do it all at once.
He got so bad I tried to talk to him, he thought I was kidding at first.
He eventually quit, until he went back to the City and did it one more time. My other friend had to identify the body at the morgue when the cops answered his phone.
Oh well. He made it to 30 against all odds so the extra month or two was just gravy.

I prefer my version.

Veeshir,

I can explain your friend's behavior. He had an endorphin deficiency. By staying off drugs for a while more and more receptors got emptied. When he did his weeks worth all at once he got a RUSH from the sudden decrease in "pain". You know - "it feels so GOOD when I stop hitting myself with a hammer."

The current unavailability of drugs tends to accentuate this kind of behavior.

But I'm with you. There is no way you can keep people from doing this even if packets of H were freely available at WalMart.

BTW getting your friend to quit may have been bad advice. Finding him a steady source of supply might have been a better option. It is generally unwise to deprive people of their medicine.

The difficulty is that there is so much bad advice out there and social stigma to boot.

Me? I'm an air junkie. A minute without it and I'm craving breath. I got the habit bad. Fortunately no one finds this remarkable.

M. Simon: You know, you get me back here like a moth to the flames, and for the life of me I can't see why. I don't do drugs, and really it's a minimal impact on me whether the stuff is legal or not.

I understand that there are people out there who can stand to benefit from judicious use of narcotics or whatever. But to go so far as to posit that all classes of chemicals should be unregulated is perhaps... a bit farther than I'd like to be dragged.

I do not believe for a moment that you can argue some classes of 'drugs' (not necessarily classified as poisons) are uniformly dangerous at relatively small doses to everyone.

I also can't buy the notion that there's a whole bunch of people who *cannot* function like normal people without a daily infusion of morphine... or cannabis... or cocaine... or bloody caffeine, for that matter. And God knows, there are plenty of cranky bastards out there who are absolutely unbearable before their first cup of coffee.

There must have been a reason why drugs got on the shitlist in the first place, and I, quite frankly, can't buy the notion that it was just for the hell of it.

Gregory,

You are correct. It was not just for the hell of it. It was racism. And I'm not kidding about that.

Drug War History

Is a ten to twenty minute read on the subject. It is the best coverage of the history of the drug war you can get without reading a book.

The short version. It was never about the danger of the drugs (although that was some times used as an excuse). It was a series of culture wars against the Chinese, Blacks, and Mexicans.

It continues to this day as a culture war against Blacks, Mexicans, and Hippies.

Gregory,

Do you accept that there are people who can not function without daily infusions of insulin?

If so why the prejudice against other substances?

Addiction Is A Genetic Disease

Here is one with links to many others:

Is Addiction Real?

The interesting thing is that the Brit scientists are saying what I have been saying for eight years. When I was first saying this it was controversial. Now it is not - at least among those charged with dealing with the subject professionally in a medical/scientific capacity.

Scientifically what I am and have been saying is not controversial. It is only politically controversial.

Which is why I call my position on the subject Evidence Based.

M. Simon, I don't know the cause, but he was saving up just the methadone, he was still doing other drugs while saving the methadone.

He was really into barbituates and of course, he smoked pot regularly.
I'm sure he did coke when he got it.

The problem for his smack habit was that for a while he lived in a small town where he'd been beaten with baseball bats when going into the "projects" to get his smack.

So he wasn't drugless, he just liked to do the methadone all at once because he got a better buzz.
In NYC, he knew were to go relatively safely, in the upstate town where we lived, there were no safe places for white folks to get heroin that he knew (He didn't know the biker community, they probably would have kicked his ass too anyway).

I will say he was junkie of the year for many years. He almost never had his phone or electric turned off.
When he lived in Queens, he got in an accident with the wife of the deputy chief of police under Benito Giuliani, he was shooting up while doing a u-turn in his taxi so he didn't notice the other car.

My father, twice, quit drinking for a long time, over a year.
Then? Alcohol-free beer, then a glass of wine with dinner. Then? Back to the quantity discount at the beer and liquore stores.

I'm not bragging, but the kids I grew up with in the Woodstock region were the children of hippies. They did drugs like people wouldn't believe. I'm really serious that my cousin and his friend did LSD every, single day for the summer. Every. Single. Day.
Do you know what that does to you? And they weren't all that odd in that town. Try hanging out in Woodstock at 3am, it's a freak show with kids from about 13-18 tripping and drinking and smoking and whatever else they could get their hands on.

The drug culture there is unbelievable.
Try smoking a cigarette or drinking a beer on the Green and you'll be in trouble.
Fire up a joint? Pass it on, don't be a bogart.

I am a firm believer in free will.

I could be a junkie (except I hate needles) or hooked on coke or an alcoholic, I'm not because I choose. My brother is heavily addictable and, of course, my father and his brother are about useless to talk to anymore.

Addiction is weakness and you will never convince me of anything different, I've seen too much of it and I've felt too much of it.

And that's why I think drugs should be legalized, you can't save people from themselves, all you can do is harm people who aren't addicted because they like to smoke a joint or do some coke on New Year's Eve.

My studies show that chronic drug takers suffer from a medical condition. PTSD for the most part (that includes sedative and anti-depressant users - alcohol, heroin pot).

The condition is determined by two things:

1. Genetics
2. Trauma

Without the genetics people get over trauma. With the genetics it takes a LOT longer.

Being sick is a weakness of course. Usually treated with medicine if there is one available. If no cure is available you do the best you can to make the patient functional if possible and comfortable if that is all that can be done.

My take on your position: you have accepted the government "frame" on drugs despite being against the drug war. I know a lot of folks suffering from your condition.

The science does not confirm your position. Typically new science takes a generation or two to permeate the culture even when ample proof is provided. It is very uncomfortable to change fundamental beliefs. Most people are unwilling to suffer to change.

Fortunately I'm an engineer and have to be willing to suffer to change my views. Otherwise my designs fail. In fact I would say that engineers are the most evidence driven people in our society. They get decades of experience of suffering to get things right. The feedback is relatively quick and undeniable.

I am blessed to have two offspring going into engineering.

I'm an engineer too, I use my observational powers to make decisions.

Although I should have said, "Giving in to your addiction is weakness".

And from what I've observed and experienced, that's exactly what it is.

How did I quit smoking cigs? I decided to. Until I did that, I quit many times to no avail. I used to say,"Quitting cigs is a breeze, I've done it tens of times".

Now, I smoke far too many cigars. Nobody forces me to buy cigars, but I do. I smoked nothing when I went back to school, now I smoke again.
Because I un-decided.

Funny how that works out.

I don't take the gov't's position on drugs, I take my position on drugs.

The drug war's position is that they don't care if it's weakness or not, it's illegal.

That's just the way it is.

Adults are responsible for their actions, saying "They can't help themselves" turns them into children.

And that, my friend, is the doctrinaire leftist's and, of course, current gov't's position.

"It's not your fault, it's your genes." is a total repudiation of any responsibility for one's actions.

That's a funny position to take for any non-leftist.

You can talk about "sickness" all you want, but that's crap. It's self-control and self-respect. Once you're an adult, you are responsible for your actions. That's just the way it is.

For instance, just because a man was beaten by his father, is it then okay to beat his children?
Not just "No", but "Hell no!".

Lots of people have the predilection, not all of them are addicts.

Do you accept that there are people who can not function without daily infusions of insulin?

If so why the prejudice against other substances?

You're right!

Because substances which are medicines exist, all substances must be medicines!

You see this kind of "logic" continuously from the legalization lobby. Congratulations, you manage to make the drug warriors look honest and science-based by comparison.

Oh, and be careful when walking home tonight. Those evil conspiratorial looking to keep the black man down might be hunting you down because you have a copy of their secret decoder ring!

Ryan,

Well let me see here. Heroin was once a medicine. It was invented to replace morphine.

Cocaine is still a medicine.

And marijuana was until the 1940s in the US Pharmacopoeia.

But maybe you would like to read about medicines we use to treat various mental conditions:

Class War

You might also wish to consider who benefits from keeping these unpatentable medicines off the market?

Would it be better to have anti-anxiety drugs that cost a dollar a dose or one tenth of a cent a dose? I guess it depends on if you are a pharmaceutical company or a patient.

Anti-depressants are very big business. Over $40 billion a year. Marijuana is an anti-depressant that would cost if legal about about $10 a pound or less. And you could grow your own. And who are some of the the biggest donors to the anti-drug campaign? Pharma companies.

Did I say anti-drug? Yes I did. Did you notice the word DRUG?

So I take it your position is now that drugs are not drugs. That is novel.

It is just another case of drugs making people stupid. And they seem to have the worst effect on people who do not take them. Go figure.

M. Simon: Oh, although I didn't mention it the first time round, it wasn't the RCC that Galileo had a problem with initially... it was his fellow scientists. But no matter. Just thought I should point it out.

I also thought I need to answer your question.

"Do you accept that there are people who can not function without daily infusions of insulin?"

Actually, given that the lack of insulin is the problem, insulin supplements are therefore the solution. That does not mean diabetics should be overdosing themselves on the stuff, nor that it should be sold over the counter.

However, if you tell me that the body naturally produces relatively large quantities of the active ingredients in cocaine, morphine, LSD, Ecstasy, and Mary-Jane, such that its lack will literally kill you, then I'd be all for legalising the stuff for those who are lacking it.

However, I suspect that in the absence of these drugs in the system *in the first place*, the worst you can say is that a person will feel bummed. Forgive me for saying that this is not exactly the life-or-death situation you posit wrt diabetes.

Read your link, found it really interesting. Cool.

Now, this may come as a shock to you, but I don't care about the USA drug laws. I'm more interested about the way things worked out in my part of the world. Did we simply import the laws from the US and jack them up several notches, such that it is a capital crime? Are *our* laws racist? Damifino, to be sure.

And I doubt you can posit marijuana to be as safe as, say, acetaminophen. Which you can swallow up to 8 a day long term without suffering from liver failure.

I will say this much though; it's become too emotionally charged an issue. Drug warriors can sound like MADD, and nobody seems to have learnt from Prohibition. I would welcome an open, honest clinical trials stripped of the activists and politics of all sides - but seriously? I don't think it's going to happen at this stage.

Gregory,

Then you believe that mood altering drugs that doctors regularly prescribe are not legitimate medicine?

====

Clinical trials of schedule I drugs are very, very, very, very, hard to do. The DEA says the FDA is in charge and the FDA says go ask the DEA.

The vast majority of work that is done on these drugs is done on animals and outside the USA.

===

I can only tell you how the USA drug laws came into being. I am unfamiliar with other countries except as they relate to the Single Convention Treaty. Which as you point out was used to foist USA laws on the rest of the world.

Well yes. Saying they can't help themselves turns them into children.

Just like the wimps who use anesthetics for oral surgery. Such children.

Or the soldiers who get PTSD from battlefield experiences and take drugs for relief. Such children. Or police and EMTs who take drugs for their PTSD. Wimps. All of them.

Wimps need to be punished for seeking pain relief. Or at least social ostracism. We can do it. We should do it. Wimps deserve it.

Relieving chronic suffering with chemicals is such a bad idea.

Just in case that's directed toward me...

Once again, I'm not talking about using, I'm talking about destroying your life.

I have no sympathy for anyone who destroys their lives through drugs the same as I don't care what you do.
I thought I had made that distinction clear.

It's not the using, it's the destruction of your life.
And again, I don't really care if you do destroy your life, just don't whine to me about it.

And that's why I say, "You can't save people from themselves".

And that's why I'm not against legalized drugs. Because people are gonna do them.

My touchstones are freedom and personal responsibility.

I've screwed my life up tremendously more than once, guess who I blamed?
Me.
I've turned my life around more than once.
Guess who gets the credit?
Me.

I'm responsible for myself.

If you do drugs and end up in a gutter begging for handouts, I have no sympathy.

Have some self-respect.

It's your life, if you end up in a gutter it's your fault.
If you let drugs destroy your life that's your fault and your problem.

Especially since I know plenty of druggies and alkies who do function.

My dead buddy died because he did the amount of heroin he did when he was a hard-core junkie.
But he functioned, when he stopped functioning I tried to talk to him.
When he got worse and even got mad at me for trying to talk to him, I stopped hanging around with him. I have no time for watching people destroy themselves.

I actually think that helped him because it wasn't long after that, according to a mutual friend, that he did quit.
But he got weak and killed himself.

I'm still pissed off at him for that.

But he got weak and killed himself.

Strength is distributed unevenly like every other talent.

M. Simon: Well. So as not to shift the goalposts too much...

I am not against medication and drugs. Don't get me wrong. I figure if it is possible to go through a long, healthy, productive life disease-free and without ailments of any sort by being drugged to the eyeballs, then bring it on, baby!

However; when you ask me about mood-altering meds, well, you mean like Ritalin? Then hell yeah, I'm against it. Especially when the dumbasses prescribe the stuff like it was candy. Oh, little Johnny likes to run around and tug his classmates' pigtails? He must be ADHD, get him on Ritalin stat!

Please.

Heck, I'm not even against morphine and stuff as a painkiller. The way I see it, if you're having some form of surgery or major trauma, your access to narcotics should be unrestricted.

But then you see, the conception I have of 'recreational' drugs is the hippie scene, "like, dude, you know, world peace, and I see purple unicorns'. Or the PCP psychos who are like the old-school Viking berserkers. Or the E popping morons who get dehydrated and kill themselves off.

Which may or may not be the doings of the US government conspiracy cabal.

G,

PTSD and the Endocannabinoid System