"You have to eliminate it"

While I can't believe that anyone would take another movie by America-hating hypocrite Michael Moore seriously, apparently some people are. The film has been gushingly praised by Arianna Huffington, who wants President Obama to see it, and I find it typical of Moore's intellectual perfidy that he starts the film out by resorting to "a brilliantly edited montage equating our current state of despair with the fall of ancient Rome." (Gee, that sounds familiar! Almost like a wet dream from Pat Buchanan and the rest of the folks at WorldNetDaily; what a shame for them that Moore happens to be on the other "side.")

Michael Moore is living proof of an important lesson I've learned over the years. There is no such thing as "demolishing" or "debunking" anyone. Certainly not in blog posts. Like mold growing on a basement wall, the man comes back again and again.

Needless to say, because Moore is a Communist, the film is little more than crass, undisguised advocacy of Communism:

...there are calls for armed revolution delivered in Moore's trademark singsong, Bolshie bedtime-story voice. The movie ends with Moore telling us, "Capitalism is evil, and you cannot regulate evil. You have to eliminate it." Then he plays the bloodthirsty Soviet national anthem "The Internationale."

They've already tried precisely the kind of eliminationism of evil that Moore advocates, and over 100 million people were eliminated.

It's nice to have another reminder of what side Moore is on.

Back in the day (when I imagined people like Moore could be debunked) I used to dedicate beheading videos to him.

But what are a few beheadings compared to the massive glories of Communist eliminationism?

So, in his honor, a lovely video of his favorite song!

MORE: If this report is any indication, the movie is not doing well at the box office.

Boo effing hoo.

MORE: Mhy thanks to Glenn Reynolds for the link, and welcome all (especially those who worry about eliminationist rhetoric, a subject of longstanding concern here).

Comments welcome, agree or disagree.

posted by Eric on 10.04.09 at 12:17 AM


A thing I have never quite figured out about the left is this: The greatest 'sin' to them is hypocrisy on the right, yet they continually reward Michael Moore, one of the greatest hypocrites on the left.

He denounces Capitalism, while prospering greatly from it. He denounces big Pharma, while prospering from investing in it, he denounces America as a horrible country while living off its largess, he denounces guns while being protected by armed bodyguards, etc.

They do the same with Al Gore and any number of their heroes. My brother in law, who is quite a brilliant man, still gives Al Gore a pass on his climate hypocrisy.

Michael Moore doesn't need to be debunked, just ignored. To those on the left, that is the worst that could happen to them.

Patrick in Des Moines   ·  October 4, 2009 7:43 AM

Moore is the epitome of the evil greedy capitalist he will
do/say whatever benefits himself, no regard
for integrity, honesty, persons or country.

Hugh   ·  October 4, 2009 7:59 AM

i have given up debating the other side. people will believe what they want to believe despite evidence to prove the contrary. this is especially for liberals whose principles have underlying altruistic, albeit misguided, intents. just stand up for what you believe in and allow to democracy take its course. as much as the economy has its cycle, political discourse ventures from the conservative to the liberal, every few years or so. in the end, lets us hope the neither side ruins America as we know and love eeet.

abdi abdoh   ·  October 4, 2009 5:25 PM

How appropriate to cite Moore and Gore in the same post; both raise hypocrisy to new heights. And both share gargantuan girth, reminding any who need reminding just how self-serving they are. The world will be a better place when both are gone. F

F   ·  October 4, 2009 5:29 PM

I don't know. Seems the dude's little more than a carnival barker. 21st Century PT Barnum. What's the quote? No one ever went broke underestimating the American people. Moore's just more proof of that.

No one you know   ·  October 4, 2009 5:30 PM

Moore's not a hypocrite, he's a propagandist thug. He loves being wealthy, he loves being adored by useful idiots on the Left. Deep down, he doesn't think he's going to be on the sharp end of the system he's advocating, but one of the kommisars in charge of it.

He needs to be Burnt by the Sun

Jeffersonian   ·  October 4, 2009 5:31 PM

Is Moore a communist? I've thought for a long time that he is just a amoral opportunist who figured out that he could make a fortune telling lefties what they want to hear.

Steve   ·  October 4, 2009 5:37 PM

You know how the left can always understand the hidden language used by their enemies- speeches about personal responsibilty are just forms of racism. Using the word socialism is now a form of racism.

Michael Moore attacks capitalism and bankers. Hitler and Stalin did too- and these attacks were either directly or indirectly target towards Jews. Now I am not saying that Michael Moore is anti-semetic, but he is certainly giving cover to those types. [Isn't that what the left always does. So he has thinly veiled anti- Jewish propagaganda and openly advanced advocacy for extermination of 'capitalists' Wow- he is in some bad company.

Rob S   ·  October 4, 2009 5:40 PM

I've often wondered if these wealthy communists don't understand that if we really got communism their wealth would be taken away and they would have to stand in the food lines with everyone else..

Choey   ·  October 4, 2009 5:56 PM

Looks like even lefties are avoiding Moore's crap movie. His days of turning up like a bad penny may be finished. One can only hope.

RebeccaH   ·  October 4, 2009 6:01 PM

Michael the Hutt is gonna send Boba Fett after us capitalists. At least he was kind enough to warn us.

moptop   ·  October 4, 2009 6:13 PM

Regarding the hypocrisy. One a message board, I once asked those who were praising Al Gore why they don't shun him for his hypocrisy. (I gave some details about his huge "carbon footprint" and how he tells everybody else to live in a way he doesn't.)

Answers along these lines: "Why, look how much awareness he is raising! And how much good is coming from that!" I continued to challenge them on his hypocrisy.

Finally, one other member did admit Gore's hypocrisy, but allowed that it didn't really matter since he is doing so much "good".

ELC   ·  October 4, 2009 6:14 PM

Moore has recently been quoted as saying that "capitalism has done nothing for him" and Ariana's site is gushing over this movie. That's just great.

I won't be holding my breath waiting for these two rich fucktards to release their tax returns so that we can see where their millions are invested. One of these days, the American people will hopefully catch on to what is really going on and drag all these rich bastards out of their limos and mansions and kill them in the streets. I, for one, can't wait.

Eat the rich.

Letalis Maximus, Esq.   ·  October 4, 2009 6:19 PM

Patrick in Des Moines, you might have your BnL search on [ maurice strong al gore ] and take a look at all the background work --starting with a company called Molten Metal Technology even before his '92 enviro book --that Gore did to set up the expected cash flow from his coming massive PR campaign against the weather.

buddy larsen   ·  October 4, 2009 6:23 PM

Rob S - I believe they think they'll be on top, and will shop in special stores, just like what happened in Russia and other Communist "paradises". I doubt if they remember that Stalin shot the Lefties first so they wouldn't be a problem to him.

Of course the Lefties will tell everyone that the Russians, Chinese, Germans, Cubans, Cambodians and everyone else did it wrong. They'll do it "right", just give them a chance.

Stanley   ·  October 4, 2009 6:29 PM

I've always found Michael Moore inspirational.

bgates   ·  October 4, 2009 6:38 PM

Though there's no reason to suspect from the above comment that I share the most notorious views of the person I said inspires me, right, Eric?

bgates   ·  October 4, 2009 6:47 PM

Can you believe that Michael Moore is still trying to say publicly that he ISN'T a millionaire? From Howard Stern 2 weeks ago:

"Howard asked Michael if he's making millions. Michael said that he does very well but he's really not wroth millions of dollars. He said that he might be wroth over a million if you include the house. He said that he saves his money in a savings account that gets like 1 percent interest."

I'm surprised no one has called him on it (to my knowledge)...

Dan   ·  October 4, 2009 6:53 PM

Michael Moore = "useful idiot"

Oliver Stone= "useful idiot'

Steven Soderbergh = "useful idiot"

Army of Davids   ·  October 4, 2009 6:56 PM

Moore assumes that when the revolution comes, he'll be part of the nomenklatura, not one of the proletariat. I think that he'd be one of the first up against the wall, for being too fat.

All these morons pretending to be intellectuals believe that. They're sure that an all powerful state would include them in the ruling class.

What they don't understand is that socialism doesn't lift the poor up to their level, it lowers everybody to the level of the poor.

AST   ·  October 4, 2009 6:59 PM

Keep an eye on Cong. Marcy Kaptur in Ohio. She's in the movie, has gotten thick as thieves with him, and is likely to become his mouthpiece to the Big World. In another district, that bond of kookiness might be a career-ender, but she's in OH09. Lucas County has more practicing commies than downtown Moscow on Mayday. FWIW, Moore could cruise the streets in front of her hometown office and not get called "Fatso" once.

comatus   ·  October 4, 2009 7:00 PM

In an era where the left has returned to tenuous power only by vigorously denying that they can be characterized by the "s" word, Michael Moore, ever off-message, has hitched his fat caboose to their wagon bringing that old specter, the "c" word. Who knows? Maybe with enough encouragement, he and Jimmeh can be persuaded to make a balcony cameo at Obama's 2012 convention speech.

Never interrupt the enemy when he is making a mistake.

ArtD0dger   ·  October 4, 2009 7:29 PM

Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln hated the bankers.
Jefferson said they are the biggest threat to the American people.

I notice you ignore the fact that the Banks STOLE TAXPAYERS MONEY.

Bush implemented the Taxpayer Ass-Rape Programme, and said that bankers should be given taxpayers money without conditions.
Bush also gave defence contractors "cost-plus" contracts, and they have been greedily ass-raping the taxpayer; blowing up trucks with flat tires then ordering new truck and charging the US taxpayer for it, charging US troops $99 for laundry!

Cheney's buddies at Halliburton has been selling nuclear equipment to IRAN.

Oh, and get this, universal healthcare in Iraq, which is paid for by the US TAXPAYER thanks to Bush and his Neocon morons.

Republicans like Larry Kudlow and Glenn Reynolds SUPPORTED THE BAILOUT. They PRAISED HANK PAULSON...HANK PAULSON, a man who should be in JAIL. The only real conservatives were Ron Paul and Jim Rogers, who said the banks should be left to die.

Bush bails out failed companies like Lockheed and Northrop Grumman, who then screw the US taxpayer.

The Pentagon loses trillions and the Republicans want to give it even more money to spend on toilets and useless jet planes.

How ironic that the most incompetent government organisation on Earth is supported so eagerly by Republicans.

The Republicans are opposed to the notion of taxpayer's money being spent on taxpayers, instead they give it to incompetent corporations.

Corporate Welfare is bankrupting America, that is an inescapable fact.
We need to get rid of welfare-addicted parasites like Lockheed and Goldman Sachs.

Spend the taxpayers money on the taxpayer.

Gary   ·  October 4, 2009 7:38 PM

Michael Moore's wealth doesn't mean he's a hypocrite, it means he's not an idiot.

One Little Victory   ·  October 4, 2009 7:47 PM

Can you please stop it with the fat jokes?
He loves to eat, I get it, you don't have to be a dick about it.

One Little Victory   ·  October 4, 2009 7:54 PM

"I've always found Michael Moore inspirational." Me too, bgates.
I figure Moore sucks up money and time and effort and what passes for thought from morons like Gary, above, and keeps them from doing more damaging stuff.

He's a boon to the Right. He makes a big (fat-assed) target of opportunity while simultaneously sucking away their resources.

I mean, it's not like he could sell relatively intelligent conservatives or libertarians enough similar crap to be as fat or as wealthy as selling such a load of manure to the Left has done.

I not only find that inspiring, I wish he was twins, or triplets.

JorgXMcKie   ·  October 4, 2009 7:59 PM

Uh, Gary, in case you haven't noticed, the Dems are trebling Bush's deficits.

But, yeah, it's all Bush's fault.

Have you also noticed that Bush "stole" his money via laws passed by Congress-critters that we voted for?

Obama steals by fiat and dictate of czars.

mockmook   ·  October 4, 2009 8:00 PM

I don't share Moore's views. People hate the banks because they hate parasites, which is what the banks are.

The Republicans and many Democrats have been silent on "Cost Plus" contracts and corporate welfare, whereas Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul, Alan Grayson, Bernie Sanders, and Marcy Kaptur have campaigned against corporate welfare. Its a shame Paul is the only Republican who believes corporations should have to compete in the free-market.

I believe in a free-market system in which the government provides the following services and nothing else:
Law Enforcement

All government services should have no involvement of the private sector.

It should be illegal under any circumstances for Corporations to receive taxpayers money. CEOs of corporations should be banned from serving in government due to conflict of interest.

Defence contractors should no longer be given taxpayers money, Lockheed and Northrop Grumman should stop sponging welfare and compete in the free market like the rest of us.

The Spentagon must pay back the $4 trillion it owes the US taxpayer.
It wastes 25% of its budget, therefore the solution is to cut 25% of its budget.

Gary   ·  October 4, 2009 8:20 PM
Defence contractors should no longer be given taxpayers money, Lockheed and Northrop Grumman should stop sponging welfare and compete in the free market like the rest of us.

Health isn't in the Constitution. Defense is.

Mark A. Flacy   ·  October 4, 2009 8:38 PM

Leave it to Moore to bite the hand that way overfeeds him.

Stephen   ·  October 4, 2009 8:54 PM

Gee, it turns out people don't want to spend their hard-earned money on a movie about how capitalism sucks. The only way Michael Moore could get fewer people to see this thing would be to market it specifically at the blind.

Jim Treacher   ·  October 4, 2009 8:54 PM

Re: Mark A. Flacy

Then nationalise Lockheed, Northrop Grumman so they are accountable to the taxpayer and actually serve the American people they receive corporate welfare from. It would stop Lockheed selling weapons to our enemies (the US taxpayer is paying for our enemies weapons thanks to traitors like Lockheed (friends of Japanese gangsters), an incompetent company who went bankrupt in the 1960s and a few years ago but were bailed out by corporate welfare).

Private companies have no business in defence, or any government department. They should have to compete in the free-market, like every other business.

As I have stated, State and Private must be separated, so they are totally separate entities.

The government should do its duties without interference from the private sector.

This would prevent corruption.

Nowhere in the US constitution does it say that taxpayers money can be given to corporations.

Giving the people's money to defence contractors is unconstitutional, as they do not serve the people.

Taxpayers money should only go to projects that directly improve the WELFARE (the Constitution uses the word welfare, meaning well-being, meaning health) of the taxpayer.

Health Insurance companies serve their shareholders, therefore the greater the number of deaths, the greater the profit, so, they want to kill as many Americans as possible, and then give the money to their foreign owners.
Why is taxpayer money being given to private health insurance companies?

My policies would reduce national debt by focusing government money towards the people who actually pay taxes, thus reinvesting, instead of giving it to corporations who serve themselves (they do not give a fig about Americans).

Gary   ·  October 4, 2009 10:06 PM

The constitution does not say anything about the NFL yet that gets welfare handouts.

Why are Republicans not campaigning against the NFL?

Gary   ·  October 4, 2009 10:45 PM

MMoore just wanted to make quick money mistakenly taking the media induced (through lies and cover up) temporary popularity of Obamas for the shift in public opinion toward the pleasures of communism (after all being a commie he knew exactly where Obamas 'bright future' logo came from). Too bad for MMoore the Obamas did not perform to [false] expectations, and their popularity with the masses went down the drain before he could release his latest masterpiss.

norar   ·  October 5, 2009 12:46 AM


Every time what you suggest (re: corps and gov) was tried costs doubled and worse very little got delivered.

Look at the effort during WW1 to have a government entity deliver armor steel for warships. The gov was supposed to do it for 70% of the corps. final cost was double.


M. Simon   ·  October 5, 2009 4:31 AM
M. Simon   ·  October 5, 2009 4:38 AM

Businesses are fine and dandy when there is competition, I'm all in favour of that, but when they get a monopoly, they will gouge people and screw them senseless.

Businesses don't like competition, that's why they lobby politicians to give them Corporate Welfare so they can cheat.

Most US businesses consider foreigners more hard-working and cheaper than Americans.

Corporations are not patriotic, they have no interest in nationality, they are driven by self-interest.

See, what happens when you have government and business in bed with each other, is you get people like Hank Paulson, who use the government to service the needs of their private interests and line their own pockets.

Some businesses cannot handle competition, which is why Goldman Sachs, via Hank Paulson, engineered the bogus financial crisis to eliminate their rivals.
The regulators, being bankers themselves, allowed their fellow bankers to do whatever they damn well pleased.

The financial crisis actually posed no threat to ordinary Americans, because the economy would rebuild and adapt to Wall Street's self-inflicted collapse. As Jim Rogers said, let the banks die and they will be replaced with better banks.

Businesses who are in financial trouble cut back wages, but the banks continue to give out bonuses, clear evidence that they did not need Corporate Welfare.
Wall Street has done nothing to help the economy, preferring instead to send American taxpayers money abroad to invest in foreign countries, while laughing at the stupidity of the American people in allowing it.

The banks are hated because they are Welfare Spongers, who felt no shame in stealing from the working and middle class.

When companies fail, let them die, that is the essence of the free-market.

Had Lockheed died when it should have done it would have been replaced with a better company.

Lockheed is, put bluntly, a failed company who could not hack it in the free market, and have been sponging off the taxpayer for decades.
In bailing them out, the US rewarded them for failure. Lockheed thanked the US taxpayer by committing fraud and giving money to Japanese gangsters.

Defence Contractors should have to bid for contracts, and the taxpayers interest should come first. "No Bid and "Cost Plus" are clearly fascist policies. Also, the revolving door should be blocked, and sealed, so that public sector/private sector profiteering is stopped. The Pentagon is staffed by people who have conflicts of interest, it is full of Hank Paulson's who give taxpayer's money to their corporate buddies.

Does our national defence really need million dollar door knobs and luxury toilets?

You are aware, are you not, that Halliburton made soldiers pay $99 for laundry, and that they blew up trucks and then billed the taxpayer. Why has no one gone to prison for this?

Then we have Dyncorp and their taxpayer-funded child prostitution rings. The Pentagon seems to be full of paedophiles, judging by their failure to punish Dyncorp.

Then there's Blackwater, murdering civilians and raping girls, all paid for by the US taxpayer. The Pentagon seems to like rapists, judging by how Blackwater keeps getting contracts.

This is the result of these contractors not operating in the free-market, this is what happens when you hand out corporate welfare as stupidly as the Pentagon does.

Expose Lockheed and their ilk to the free market and they will function better; if they fail to serve the taxpayer, strip them of their contracts and let them die.

This will make them work harder and raise standards.

One solution to the Pentagon's costs would be to set all Pentagon's staff wages to the minimum wage, thus ensuring those who join do so to serve their country. Say $3 - $4 an hour.

Politicians in all branches of government should also only be paid a
the minimum wage.

All in all, I would say the Pentagon should be sold off so it has to compete in the free market, as it already puts profit before the American people, it is ridiculous to pretend it has any place in government, given its obvious contempt for the American taxpayer.

Gary   ·  October 5, 2009 6:29 AM

I agree with the sentiment the author expresses where he writes that there is no such thinking as "debunking" a brainwashed leftist.

Why are conservatives different? Why aren't they "brainwashed"?

First of all, progressives try to brainwash Americans from the time they are old enough to attend daycare to the time they graduate college.

"Now Johnny, did you bring enough for everyone? Now Johnny, remember to share. Now Johnny, what did Barney say about authority figures?" It's easy for a rational person to see that the indoctrination is pretty relentless once one has this fact on his radar. But progressives don't see this at all - it is simply "reinforcement" in their minds. It is kind of like the fish who doesn't know he's wet.

Second, progressives never have their ideas or values seriously challenged. When a progressive speaks, no matter what he or she says is accepted because it's all considered to be "subjective." This makes our educational system into a giant social bonding exercise, where the progressive "feeling" is reinforced. You might call this "sheeple herding." Conservatives who try to snap the sheeple back to reality are singled out for ad hominem ridicule by a thousand little yapping leftists or government lapdogs if they suggest a progressive idea is unrealistic or even...(shhh)... delusional.

Last, Cultural Marxism means that even if people want to escape from leftism, it is shoved back in their face by Hollywood and the likes of Michael Moore in the entertainment venue. For example, I had to walk out of Star Trek, for God's sake, because the propaganda was so blatant and unmistakable (there were several pro-Obama themes interlaced throughout the narrative). Thank God the progressives so arrogant that they are becoming less subtle. When people smell communism they reject it. Repeatedly.

Let's face it - arguing with leftists is pretty pointless. I've thrown everything from Aristotle to Alexis de Tocqueville at them, and they never budge. They don't hold their views rationally, and you can dissuade them of their views using reason.

Reasonsjester   ·  October 5, 2009 8:55 AM

Defence Contractors should have to bid for contracts, and the taxpayers interest should come first. "No Bid and "Cost Plus" are clearly fascist policies.

Those policies were par tof the '90's streamlining gov't put in by noted GOP fascists Bill Clinton and deputy Dawg Al Gore.

One solution to the Pentagon's costs would be to set all Pentagon's staff wages to the minimum wage, thus ensuring those who join do so to serve their country. Say $3 - $4 an hour.

I don't believe they're tipped employees. You can go back to your Soc 101 lecture now.

bandit   ·  October 5, 2009 9:38 AM

So,let me get this straight,suggesting that airline pilots should be paid more than $20,000 makes you a communist? Has anyone here actually seen the movie?
Please continue screaming that "Moore is a hypocrite because he makes money in this system and doesn't give it all up and live in a homeless shelter."
Because when you say that, you're also admitting that conservatives are nihilists who don't give a damn about anything but themselves,so therefore they're not expected to give up anything or care about anyone else.

Oily_Taitz   ·  October 5, 2009 1:50 PM

According to the principles of the free-market, companies should compete, and the company that offers the best (or most well marketed) product wins.

But incompetent corporations like Lockheed Martin can't compete, so they cheat:

"In 1976 Lockheed paid millions of dollars to Japanese government officials to smooth the way for the sale of Lockheed's airplanes to a Japanese airline corporation, All Nippon Airways. They paid Japanese gangster and yakuza chief Kodama Yoshio $2.1 million in payoffs to help them sell their new wide-bodied passenger airplane, the TriStar L1011, against stiff competition from Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas. Kodama relied on familiar yakuza techniques to force the resignation of Tetsuo Oba, president of All Nippon Airways. At a stockholders' meeting, Kodama packed the room with "sokaiya" -- financial specialists -- who leaked information about an illegal $1 million loan which had been paid to Oba. In disgrace, ANA's president stepped down to be replaced by a candidate favorable to Kodama's interests."

Lockheed, decades before, also sold inferior jet planes to the German government, not on their own merit, but through a bribe from the US Government, because the British plane they were competing against was better. Thus the inferior product won through cheating and corruption. Makes you proud to be American, doesn't it? This inept defence contractor would not survive in the free market.

If a company is given money by the taxpayer, it should forfeit the right to any profits; those should belong to the taxpayer.

Why should the taxpayer be lumbered with the losses while the corporation runs off with all the profits.

If a company wants to make big profits, then it should do so in the free-market, without any aid and welfare handouts. No tax-breaks, no welfare.

Ralph Nader has argued for the abolition of all Corporate Welfare, a position one might assume that "free-market" conservatives would also hold.
Yet I have heard none of the so-called free-market conservatives be true to their principles and call for an end to all Corporate Welfare.

The farming industry is one of the biggest parasites, sponging off the taxpayer, claiming welfare, a bunch of worthless scroungers who should be told "no more money".

Then we have McDonalds getting welfare money from the government, not a dicky bird from the Republicans on that outrage.

The incestuous relationship between Corporate America and the Government has to end. It is anti-democratic and anti-American. Goldman Sachs is running America.
Bankers should not be allowed to work in the treasury department, as its obvious to anyone with a brain that there is conflict of interest.

And we should start by sacking all the crooks in the Pentagon, which, Anti-American to its core, gives taxpayers money to child prostitute rings and lawless anti-American mercenaries.

Never forget that the supposedly fiscally prudent Republicans want the Pentagon to waste even more of your money on fancy toilets and planes that can't stay in the air for more than 3 hours.

Moore's views on the bankers are not extremist; Jim Rogers has described them as parasites who don't make anything.

Wall Street is just a big Casino which no longer invests in anything, instead it shuffles money around, with its "innovative" methods of bundling bullshit, and will soon seek to profit from your death with its "Death Derivatives".
Its Wall Street that will soon be wanting your grandma to die.

Gary   ·  October 5, 2009 5:10 PM

Gary: "Yet I have heard none of the so-called free-market conservatives be true to their principles and call for an end to all Corporate Welfare."

I heard the meme of "Corporate Welfare" when I first started paying attention in the early 1990s, and it was from the Right: P.J. O'Rourke, Rush Limbaugh, Reason, National Review. Arguably The New Republic in the Kinsley-to-Lane era counted as more Right than Left.

It's a shame you let your anger infect your prose; because otherwise you make decent points about conflicts of interest and about the reigning conservatives' dereliction of duty.

Zimriel   ·  October 5, 2009 8:58 PM

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