what page am I on?

At the gay issues debate the other night, Bill Richardson (a man I'm sorry is doing so poorly in the Democratic race) said something a lot of people who believe in freedom and free choice might have said about homosexuality:

At least one candidate, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, seemed to stumble when asked by Etheridge if he believed homosexuality was a choice or biological.

"It's a choice," he said at first. "I'm not a scientist. I don't see this as an issue of science or definition."

When pressed on the point that opponents of gay rights often assert that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, Richardson said, "I don't think it's a matter of preferences, I think it's a matter of equality."

In other words, it's a matter of freedom. (Not a popular topic these days.... I've expended many words on this topic since the beginning of this blog.)

Few would understand, although I think that Ann Althouse quite possibly does:

Was that really a "stumble"? Maybe Richardson did waltz into a forum on gay rights unprepared to deal with the most basic gay rights subjects. I seriously doubt that. He's no fool. So what's up? It's possible that he takes science seriously -- as opposed to ideologically -- and he's refraining from making declarations about things that he doesn't know to be scientific fact. It's possible that he may mean -- and I think this is the best position -- that even if homosexuality is a matter of choice -- "preferences" -- gay people deserve equal rights. But I suspect that Richardson is interested in maintaining the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. People who care about gay rights ought to follow up on that, because it's the foundation for justifying discrimination.
Yes, and it should not be. Freedom is freedom. If there is freedom to do something, why one does it should be secondary. (And of course there is freedom not to do what there is freedom to do.)

But here's an altogether different reaction to Richardson's remarks:

All in all, the audience evidently got the answers they were hoping for (with the exception of a unanimous endorsement for "same-sex marriage"). However, the crowd collectively gasped when Governor Richardson said that homosexuality is "a choice," rather than an inborn trait, momentarily sucking all the hot air from the room.

The debate represented the culmination of decades of relentless propaganda, intended to justify and promote the homosexual lifestyle, foisted on society by an assiduous homosexual lobby.

The victims of this foisting don't know how immoral they are being by allowing the debate to take place:
...the fact that this debate even took place is a sad commentary on the moral state of our union. It's shameful that our nation's moral standards have nose-dived to the point that it's now considered good and "tolerant" to hold a debate organized entirely around the promotion of sexual immorality.

What's next? Are presidential candidates going to be asked to participate in a debate on how to garner widespread acceptance of adultery or incest? Are members of the growing polygamy lobby and the pedophile group NAMBLA going to tap candidates for a televised debate to promote their chosen lifestyles?

I've been looking for the polygamy lobby, and I can't find them. Hell, I've been unable to locate the incest lobby.
Thousands of years of history, every major world religion, the unambiguous science of human biology and good old-fashioned common sense have established that homosexual behaviors are both immoral and destructive to the lives, health and spiritual well-being of those who choose to participate in those behaviors.
Great Caesar's ghost!

What am I supposed to say? I've tried politely answering email from this guy, but he never saw fit to answer. He cares -- he really and truly cares -- what other people (strangers he doesn't even know) might possibly be doing with their genitalia. Why else would he send me these emails? Why do people care what others do with their genitalia? (I don't, but there's no inverse Golden Rule.)

As I keep saying, there's no debating these issues. Seriously, how would supporters of gay marriage debate supporters of sodomy laws? They are not on the same page.

Any ideas, feel free to speak up.

MORE: It also occurs to me that this entire issue runs afoul of the old principle of "Never talk about religion or politics." Because of its cultural nature in this society, the gay issue doubly violates this rule, plus it involves sex! Not just sex, but a form of sex with which activists on both sides have very strong feelings.

As to the people who simply want to be left alone, who don't have strong feelings, who don't know or claim to know the scientific arguments (or who don't especially care what other people do sexually), they are seen as ignorant and uncaring by activists on one side -- and immoral by activists on the other.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid this issue is not going to go away over the next year.

posted by Eric on 08.12.07 at 12:39 AM





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Comments

A choice or a preference. Does it really matter?
For my own view of the matter, I think I was destined to be gay. But I can accept others who may have chosen the lifestyle.
What really counts is that in the long run what we as individuals do with our sexuality is personal.
Let the government butt out.

Frank   ·  August 12, 2007 02:06 AM

Well, let's face it, the urge to label homosexuality a biological non-choice without scientific demonstration is an intellectually dishonest attempt to equate the plight of the homosexual with the plight of the racial minority.

Why? It's an attempt to put one's position beyond debate.

For all I know, the biological explanation is the true one, or partially true, but I haven't seen the proof. I hope it's not true, simply because the "I can't help it because of my genes" justification is the antithesis of free behavior.

Brett   ·  August 12, 2007 08:36 AM

Prenatal hormones and genes may explain sexual inclinations in some cases, but so what? There are a lot of sexual practices.

The issue involves freedom.

I worry that we're headed for a personal/political inquisition.

Eric Scheie   ·  August 12, 2007 09:00 AM

Take another complex trait like intelligence as an analog. There are more than one way to be intelligent and more than one reason one might be. Some people do seem to have inherited traits that make acquiring and processing information easier than for others. Some are influenced early on in their childhood to see the importance of education, and intellectual development. Some are smart because they tend that way naturally while others "choose" that path.

There seems to be some strong evidence that some are homosexual due to innate factors. I do find it interesting that someone can be "pro-gay rights" yet anger people of the same view because he does not share the same view of the origins of the trait.

As for the remarks:
"Thousands of years of history, every major world religion, the unambiguous science of human biology and good old-fashioned common sense have established that homosexual behaviors are both immoral and destructive to the lives, health and spiritual well-being of those who choose to participate in those behaviors."/i>

Uh... that would require one to be completely ignorant of the various views (generally falling somewhere between full tollerance and absolute condemnation) taken on homosexual behavior by various cultures over the years of the fact that many cultures (increasing generally over time) have come to the conclusion that what may be "immoral and destructive to the lives, health and spiritual well-being" of the individual are decisions that are best left in the hands of the individual.

It is ironic that the discovery that genetically influenced male homosexuality (at least) is kept in the population due to the effect that the genes have on female carriers (increasing attraction towards males yields higher pregnancy rates) shows that socially repressing male homosexuality means that the genes that cause it are kept at a higher level in the population than they would be naturally since male homosexuals marry females and pass on the genes more often than they would normally. You might say that homophobia endorses homosexuality.

Saul Wall   ·  August 12, 2007 04:08 PM

A good partner will adjust/his her feelings to the sensitivity of the other partner.

Neither too hard nor too soft.

I believe that ought to be sufficient.

M. Simon   ·  August 12, 2007 04:34 PM

I've been looking for the polygamy lobby, and I can't find them.

Google "polyamory."

Karl Gallagher   ·  August 13, 2007 05:14 PM

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