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August 23, 2007
Only blacks show off their underwear?
Call me a pervert if you will, but I'm fascinated by the political implications of the Atlanta city government's attempt to ban baggy pants which show boxer shorts: ATLANTA (AP) - Baggy pants that show boxer shorts or thongs would be illegal under a proposed amendment to Atlanta's indecency laws.I don't want young people thinking that either. For the record, I oppose sloppy attire in public, and I have said so many times. I am in favor of school dress codes, the stricter the better. Children are not adults, and I think institutions that educate them have not only a right but also a duty to tell them what to wear. However adults are adults, and if you're an adult, you have a right to run around looking like a slob, regrettable though that might be. I do not think governments - whether federal, state, or local -- have any business getting into telling people what to wear beyond prohibiting nudity, and, I suppose, requiring shoes to prevent the spread of diseases. I hate sagging pants which expose visible underwear, but I would not make that a crime, because whether you like it or not, it is not indecent exposure. However, even though I don't consider this an appropriate area for legislation, I fail to understand the racial implications. Debbie Seagraves does: The proposed ordinance would also bar women from showing the strap of a thong beneath their pants. They would also be prohibited from wearing jogging bras in public or show a bra strap, said Debbie Seagraves, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Georgia.It does? I've seen plenty of white men and women wearing these stupid clothes. What does it mean to say that something "came out of the black culture?" That's awfully broad, and I think a number of assumptions are involved. Rock and roll came out of the black culture, so did disco, so did hip-hop, and so did rap. If loud music were prohibited after certain hours, and it could be shown that most loud music was one of these forms, would that constitute discrimination against something that "came out of the black culture"? Is Seagraves arguing that black people invented baggy pants, boxer shorts or bras? Or merely that they decided to wear them in certain ways? I'm old enough to remember when miniskirts first horrified the nation, but would it in any way be relevant to claim that they came out of "white culture" because they first appeared in England? But Seagraves goes from her declaration of culture origin to racial profiling: "This is a racial profiling bill that promotes and establishes a framework for an additional type of racial profiling," Seagraves said.Setting aside my thoughts about the wisdom of the ordinance, it would appear that its proponents are black. Why wouldn't that mean that the dress code "came out of the black culture"? And if so, then according to the laws of identity politics which Seagrave seems to be invoking, white people should not be heard to complain. Right? If you think this means Debbie Seagraves is a dissenting black activist, think again. Debbie Seagraves is white. And on behalf of the ACLU, she's decided that a proposal by black Atlanta legislators is racist. (No, she doesn't dress like Madonna, so don't you white heteronormative types go there looking at her picture and expect to be titillated by underwear that wants to be outerwear.) Hey wait a second! I thought it was against the rules of identity politics for any white people to accuse any black people of racism. Is there an exception for white leftists? Or has Debbie Seagraves been getting ideas from Jeff Goldstein? MORE: In a more recent post, Jeff Goldstein explains why a white leftist like Debbie Seagraves does in fact have the unique right to castigate blacks with whom she disagrees: ...calling a Black man an "Uncle Tom" isn't really racist if you've taken steps to embrace progressive politics, because progressives, bless their selfless souls, have -- along with a dazzling righteousness! -- emotional and ideological purity on their side. And if the wayward Negro they're striving to help would just learn to listen to these sage shepherds of social justice, they wouldn't need to coax the poor dumb ungrateful fuck back on the plantation with such a show of tough love.Via Glenn Reynolds, who doesn't think the narrative is being controlled very well. Hey, in this instance I can't even figure out what the cultural underwear narrative is, much less who's supposed to control it. (I do think that the idea of there being such a thing as stolen cultural underwear simply goes too far. They're not only politicizing the personal, they're playing a dirty game of hardball identity politics!) UPDATE (08/24/07): Clayton Cramer has an interesting additional take on this; that it's not only vague, but probably unenforceable: the problem with such an ordinance isn't just that the ACLU will challenge it as "racial profiling" or violating freedom of speech. The problem is how do you define "undergarments"? Boxer shorts are not so different from shorts in appearance these days. Would someone wearing briefs, then boxer shorts, then sagging pants be in violation if the boxer shorts were visible?Some things are beyond the power of legislation. In fact, I'd say that legislation like this only invites more defiance, and more "creativity." posted by Eric on 08.23.07 at 12:52 PM
Comments
"This is a racial profiling bill that promotes and establishes a framework for an additional type of racial profiling," Seagraves said. OK, if that is not a claim that the bill is racist, then it follows that racial profiling is not racist. Eric Scheie · August 23, 2007 05:25 PM OK, if that is not a claim that the bill is racist, then it follows that racial profiling is not racist. Not quite. You're committing a logical fallacy. In one case (racial profiling), you're using ethnic or racial characteristics in detaining a person on the suspicion of a crime as opposed to evidence. OTOH, (weird dress code), you're criminalizing a certain form of dress favored, to a large extent, by certain races. Jadegold · August 23, 2007 09:27 PM I don't think it should be illegal to have your pants halfway down your ass... but I also don't think it should be illegal for me to run up to these guys, shout "Pull 'em up, or pull 'em down!", grab their belt loops, and let the moment dictate which way I yank 'em. John S. · August 23, 2007 11:19 PM Does the law include a definition of outer garment vs. under garment? Because as I walk down the street or lie on the beach, it is not clear at all what the difference is. What if I wear baggy pants with a white bathing suit underneath? Is that ok? Or a suit jacket with my dress shirt visible underneath? tim maguire · August 24, 2007 10:16 AM Or, for that matter, boxer shorts with no pants on at all. What, exactly, are we being protected from with this law? tim maguire · August 24, 2007 10:18 AM Post a comment
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And on behalf of the ACLU, she's decided that a proposal by black Atlanta legislators is racist.
Nope. She decided or said no such thing. What she did say was such a law would very likely be applied in a racially discriminatory manner. I understand you may believe this to be a subtle point but it isn't.
Additionally, the proposed ordinance is really, really vague. Anyone who runs probably sees half a dozen fellow runners offering glimpses of sports bras or jock straps.
Jeffy Goldstein really needs to get a grip.