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May 17, 2007
I only debate myself here! (But occasionally I break my rule)
An earlier post by M. Simon about the slowdown of the solar conveyor has generated an extended and ongoing debate. I'm hesitant to call it a scientific debate, because this is not a science blog, and unverified commenters are not scientists. (Why that post outranks the NASA report at Google is unclear, but hey, I'm not complaining....) Scientists and wannabe scientists are as welcome here as politicians and wannabe politicians! I am not a scientist, and I am a late comer to the debate on anthropogenic global warming -- the political aspects of which are of far more interest to me than the scientific aspects. The existence of warming is a separate issue from whether man is responsible for warming, and whether man is responsible is a separate issue from whether man can do things to cool the planet. And whether man can do things to cool the planet is a separate issue from whether man should cool the planet. And whether man should cool the planet is a separate issue from how best to do that. (For example, why single out driving if meat-eating is the greater culprit?) And all of these things are separate issues from whether the government constitutionally can -- or should -- place restrictions on human economic activity. I think history shows that when the government gets involved in these things, the situation gets worse. Anyway, the following comment I left to an earlier post pretty much explains what I think: Scientists can say whatever they want, and just as they are free to take scientific positions on various theories, so they are free to take political positions. These theories were of little interest to me until it became apparent that they were being applied in a political manner (to advance proposals that would harm the economy, and even invade my life and my home).Because no one seemed to get it, I might as well add that the real issue in the post was that the Wicked Witch is green! (What? Do I have to spell everything out?) Anyway, I'm sure many scientific arguments could be advanced against alcohol. It's bad for you! It can rot your liver, screw up your brain and a lot of other organs, dramatically shorten your life, and may very well cause unemployment and domestic violence. The above are scientific arguments, but when they are used to advance prohibition, they become fair game politically. I might enjoy having fun with science, but my position is political. The thing is, debates just aren't my shtick. I enjoy writing this blog, but just as I'm not interested in getting into political debates, I'm not interested in scientific debates. However, I believe in free speech, and I allow anonymous open commenting. I let comments speak for themselves, but I don't consider them debate. The problem for me is that occasionally I respond to a comment, as I did in the green witch post. I really should work harder not to do that, and I'm thinking seriously of banning myself as a commenter to ensure it doesn't happen again. But that would be a form of censorship, so I don't want to do that. Better to just think of my comments as aberrations. However, I'm having an internal debate right now over whether my admitted policy violations constitute hypocrisy. (And worse, whether calling attention to my regrettable policy violations might constitute shameless self-indulgent narcissism.) Thinking it over carefully, I have tentatively decided to go easy on myself and declare that my comments are merely exceptions that prove my rule. posted by Eric on 05.17.07 at 10:10 AM
Comments
"I think that the skepticism arises only when the science produces results that suggest political conclusions that people don't like." Skepticism has been the defacto scientific position for five centuries. Science itself is intensely skeptical - and self-skeptical at that! Saul · May 17, 2007 12:05 PM "Skepticism has been the defacto scientific position for five centuries. Science itself is intensely skeptical - and self-skeptical at that!" Of course. Scientific skepticism is a necessary element of the scientific process. But I believe the Eric was referring to public skepticism of scientific results for political reasons. Froblyx · May 17, 2007 12:10 PM Post a comment
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"I am a late comer to the debate on anthropogenic global warming -- the political aspects of which are of far more interest to me than the scientific aspects."
Indeed, I would suggest that the political aspects are the ones crying out for discussion, not the scientific ones. Let the scientists decide the science, then proceed in the policy discussion using the scientific results as the starting point for the discussion. And you are very right to point out the logical separations between the various concepts that lead up to the political discussion.
"When science is used politically, skepticism is the inevitable result. "
I think that the skepticism arises only when the science produces results that suggest political conclusions that people don't like. The solution is to follow your suggestion: separate the scientific argument from the political argument. If the science says that CO2 is going to cause harm, and you don't like the political implications of that, well, argue the politics, not the science. It's fundamentally illogical to deny a truth because you don't like its implications.
"The above are scientific arguments, but when they are used to advance prohibition, they become fair game politically."
No! If the facts you listed have been demonstrated to be true, we don't deny them and declare that alcohol is good for you. We hone them (How MUCH alcohol is bad for you? What KINDS of alcohol are bad for you?) Then we turn to the political issues, which are entirely separate. In this case, the right to screw up your own damn liver is the controlling political factor. You don't need to deny the scientific truth, because science doesn't dictate policy -- personal and political values do. Science only provides the factual basis on which policy decisions can be made.
No, I didn't get the joke about the witch being green. You DO have to spell it out for me... Sorry.
"I'm thinking seriously of banning myself as a commenter to ensure it doesn't happen again."
I hope you don't. Unlike Mr. Simon, you strike me as a person I can disagree with constructively. (I also happen to agree with you on a good number of issues.) I would welcome the opportunity to chew over these issues with you. I realize the danger here: you can get sucked into nasty interchanges with dolts. But I, for my part, promise to try my best not to be a dolt. ;-)