my bigoted inner child hates all bigoted debates!

Despite the fact that I don't get a large number of actual comments, I am forced to go to a lot of trouble to keep the comments feature turned on. I get more spam than many readers might imagine. It pours in, day in and day out, and it consumes many hours of my time. I have almost reached the point where I will have to require commenters to be signed in and all that garbage -- not because I want to do that, but because the spammers are making my life too complicated, and I just don't have time to deal with them.

But this post is about another problem. Maybe it's more a misunderstanding about the nature of comments, but I'll try to address it.

A commenter named "Raj" seems to think that I have some sort of a duty to answer essay length comments -- one of which stated numerous views with which I disagree. I have no duty to allow, read, or respond to any comment at all or in part. That I made a couple of observations in no way obligates me to explain anything, as this is not a debating forum. I wrote my post and "Raj" (whoever he may be) left a comment. I can say whatever I want, or nothing at all. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that I have to respond at all -- much less matching detail for detail. Raj or anyone else can post whatever they want in their own blogs, and just as I would not be obligated to leave comments or respond to their posts, neither would they be obligated to allow me to comment or respond to any comment I left.

I might as well take this opportunity to say again that I think much of what passes for debate over same sex marriage is silly name calling, and that I do not think it is bigotry to disagree over what represents a drastic change in the law.

I would defend to the death the principle that adults have a right to engage in consensual sex of whatever sort they desire. However, I have a major argument with the idea that sexual interests define people as members of any group entitled to rights beyond the right to sexual freedom and privacy. I don't believe homosexuals are a separate or distinct class of citizens entitled to recognition, because I do not believe that sexual tastes constitute a form of human identity. (Any more than food preference, or styles in clothing, hair color, or ways of taking a leak.) Once sexuality is defined as an "identity," in my view it limits freedom by defining people according to what they do with their genitalia, and it leads to invasion of people's privacy and dignity. Already, we are seeing a division over "outing" -- which itself is a wholesale violation of privacy based on identity politics, which has grown like a cancer in this country. (I think all hate crime laws are wrong, and I would never support more of them.)

But, for the sake of this discussion, even if we consider homosexuals to be a recognizable identity group, it cannot be denied that they are already allowed to marry members of the opposite sex, because the marriage laws allow that, and do not question people's sexual tastes. Some gay activists seek broadening these laws to allow same sex marriage, but as a gay rights issue, such a change is overbroad, because it would allow heterosexuals and homosexuals alike to marry people of the same sex, without regard to sexual orientation. This cannot be seen solely as a "gay rights" issue, because it is an expansion of marriage for everyone. Because of this overbroadness, it is entirely possible to disagree with the idea of same sex marriage without being "bigoted against gays."

(For that matter, society has also made a determination only adults may marry. Is this "bigotry" against children?)

I think all people have a say in this, I respect the opinions on both sides, and I don't think it is helpful for either side to to call the other "bigoted."

Actually, considering the likelihood of political backlash, maybe it is helpful -- helpful to the cause of those being called "bigots."

There are a number of definitions of bigotry (the modern trend often involves identity politics issues), and while I more lean towards a definition that includes hatred, it also means intolerance. That, of course, begs the question of what is intolerance? If I turn off comments because I cannot tolerate them, am I a bigot? Not that I am planning to do that, but a lot of bloggers don't allow comments, and I don't think that constitutes bigotry. Certainly, simple disagreement is not bigotry, but at what point might it become bigotry? I think a line is crossed when someone is called names. ("Evil," "stupid," "ignorant" and so on.)

But the problem with that definition is that it might mean that calling someone a "bigot" is itself bigotry, which would render any further argument circular and pointless.

That's why I suspect the word "bigot" is overused as a result of frustration.

As a practical tactic, it's a good way to end a discussion while reassuring yourself that you've "won."

(While I'm not sure that ideas are debates to be won, I guess that's another topic. Might it be possible to exchange ideas without debating?)

posted by Eric on 10.26.06 at 08:49 AM





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About your spam problem...

Likewise, I get hundreds of spams for only very occasional comments.

I use 'Spam Karma' - which is amazing. Literally thousands of spam comments caught, and it's never let one through, nor (as far as I can tell, and I did check for a while) blocked a legitimate comment.

Kip Watson   ·  October 26, 2006 11:16 AM

I don't believe homosexuals are a separate or distinct class of citizens entitled to recognition, because I do not believe that sexual tastes constitute a form of human identity.

On the one hand, you're absolutely right: your sexual tastes should not be a part of your "identity" because they're NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS. (Also because, when the shouting dies down, they're really not a reliable or relevant guide to your character.)

On the other hand, sexual tastes have BECOME part of our "identity" simply because there are so many hateful idiots making a public issue out of other people's private lives. Imperfect though they may be, laws banning discrimination against certain sexual tastes are a response to people, and communities, judging people's worth based on their sexual tastes (as they "understand" them, at least); and committing unjust and sometimes violent acts based on such judgements. If those gay-bashers could keep their noses (and whatever other parts) out of other people's sex lives, the anti-discrimination laws would not be necessary.

Raging Bee   ·  October 26, 2006 11:17 AM

PS: Regarding your spam problem, you may try showing a distorted graphic and requiring commenters to type the letters they see each time they post.

PPS: I entered my handle, email address and URL, and checked "Yes" to "Remember Me?" but the form didn't "remember" my information and I had to retype it all in my next response. Your comment form used to remember my info. Is this a glitch, or a response to the spam?

Raging Bee   ·  October 26, 2006 11:24 AM

Kip and Bee, thanks!

Kip, I don't think Spam Karma works with Movable Type.

Bee, I agree with most of your comment. A lot of people forget that the "homosexual" category is largely a 19th Century creation, and that the gay movement is a reaction to persecution of homosexuals who only became an identity group because they were singled out in the first place. Whether people should continue to perpetuate this process is a question I've posted about many times.

Regarding the mechanics of comment posting, while the spam has increased tremendously, the glitch you mention also happens to me now -- only since I upgraded to the latest version of MT. I'm going to look into why, as I don't know.

In any case, I don't like being forced to add features which hassle commenters, but I might have to....

Eric Scheie   ·  October 26, 2006 12:25 PM

in summation: you may be a bigot yourself if you call someone else one. makes sense to me. remember when we used to say "it takes one to know one??"

Jim Engelstad   ·  October 26, 2006 04:49 PM

I was never bigoted until I moved to Melbourne -- which is 40% Anglo-Saxon and 60% every culture under the sun.

Really, I don't think of myself as bigoted so much as 'culturally intolerant'. I try and be fair and target my intolerance to particular subcultures, for example I get on great with the Greeks and Italians in the neighbourhood, but I can't stand the 'wogboys' (their own term), those groups of macho and obnoxious Greek and Italian young men (Mate, until you've shared a busy road or freeway with them...).

They say bigotry comes from misunderstanding. If so, why is it that the greatest strife (eg. English/Irish, English/French) exists between cultures who understand each other extremely well?

Kip Watson   ·  October 26, 2006 06:06 PM

As to "bigotry," remember the lovely line that whoever first mentions Hitler, loses.

Bleepless   ·  October 26, 2006 06:31 PM

"That I made a couple of observations in no way obligates me to explain anything, as this is not a debating forum. I wrote my post and "Raj" (whoever he may be) left a comment. I can say whatever I want, or nothing at all. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that I have to respond at all -- much less matching detail for detail. Raj or anyone else can post whatever they want in their own blogs, and just as I would not be obligated to leave comments or respond to their posts, neither would they be obligated to allow me to comment or respond to any comment I left."

Raj is not an unknown hazard, Eric. I think there are a fair number of bloggers who have banned him; he's a smart guy, but etiquette isn't his strong suit. In any case, you've stated your case, and you've allowed him to state his counterargument on your property. Now what each of you wrote is there for readers to evaluate as they wish. I don't see why you should give a second thought to accusations that you're not doing enough.

Sean Kinsell   ·  October 26, 2006 10:55 PM

Be careful with the spam filters filtering out real comments.

There's another blog out there that I used to enjoy reading -- I won't name names but let's just the two guys who host it are both gay and patriots -- that decided that my one comment every day or so was spam and the software stopped letting me post there. I don't know what I supposedly did. I didn't comment all that much. None of my comment posts were about miracle cures or sex-crazed Russian teens or buying prescription drugs from Latvia. But I was labelled "spam" and relegated to the comment garbage bin.

I didn't comment much. I don't mind blogs like instapundit that are comment-free either. But I hate when there's a conversation and I'm the only one excluded from it. And I read enough blogs, so one less to check in on was no big deal.

Unless, of course, classicalvalues.com ever were to become the "one less blog." That would be a huge and terrible deal.

Rhodium Heart   ·  October 27, 2006 02:05 AM

Raj doesn't seem to have a blog of his own (at least not one he links to in comments) so I am betting he is that creature that I refer to as the Blog Leech. Since he doesn't have the skill to set up a blog and drive traffic to it, he leeches views off of more skilled bloggers in thier comments.

My own practice is that if it is going to be more than four or five paragraphs (unless I am an established member of a commenting community) I make it a post on my blog. But I'm not going to leech off someone else to get my ideas out, which is what blog leeches do.

Phelps   ·  October 27, 2006 04:09 PM

Twistys Presents: Erica Campbell

erica campbell   ·  November 22, 2006 05:29 AM


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