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August 10, 2006
Islamic statists are stateless?
Professor Keith Burgess-Jackson does not think President Bush should have used the term "Islamic fascist" to describe the Islamic enemy, and he would prefer the president use the term "Islamists." (Via Glenn Reynolds.) I'm not in the business of defending Bush, and while it may be true that he wasn't strictly accurate in his use of the term, common sense suggests he wasn't that far off. I don't like quibbling over terminology, and while I don't use the term "Islamic fascist," I regularly use the term "Islamofascist," because I think for a variety of reasons, it fits. (Once again, I'm neither an expert nor a war blogger, but I also see that Austin Bay has no problem describing the enemy as "fascist.") First of all, Saddam Hussein's Baathist Iraq was modeled on fascist lines, as is Baathist Syria. Baathism may not have originally been a religious movement, but under Saddam Hussein, that changed. The connection between right wing Muslims and fascism dates back at least as far as Palestinian Islamist leader Haj Amin al Husseini, shown here meeting with Adolf Hitler: If that doesn't convince you, here's a picture of him reviewing Nazi SS troops:
The main reason Burgess-Jackson would exclude Islamists from the definition of fascism is because they're not statists: The reason it’s inappropriate to describe Islamists as fascists is simple: They’re not statists. To Muslims, including that subset of Muslims I call Islamists (see below), a state is at best a temporary thing, performing certain administrative, organizational, or ideological tasks. It has no independent significance, as it does in, say, the Christian tradition. (“Render unto Caesar” and all that.) Islamists aren’t trying to create a state in which all the parts work as one; their ultimate goal is a stateless world in which everyone worships Allah.But isn't that like saying that because the end goal of Communists was the "withering away of the state," that Communism wasn't statism? If the Iranian mullahcracy is any example, Islamic statism has certainly been alive and well since 1979. It might not follow the Mussolini Fascist Party platform, but in terms of restrictions on freedom, government control, lack of free speech and general repression, I think it's close enough to fascism of the small "f" variety. Once again, here's the dictionary definition: fascism n. 1. [often cap.] The principles of the Fascisti; also, the movement or government regime embodying those principles.That would apply to the state of Iran, to the state of Iraq, to the former Taliban state in Afghanistan, and any state the grand Mufti of Jerusalem (a man who should perhaps be called the father of Islamofascism) might have set up had his war against the Jews been successful. True, the Islamists who are waging war right now might not have all the trappings [or identical music] of fascism, but on the other hand, take a look at this picture: That's Hezbollah, of course. I don't think it's a mistake to call them fascists -- even if they're just fascists of the small "f" variety. I'd prefer Bush use the expression "Islamofascists," but considering the overall historical context, and his well known tendency to misspeak occasionally, I honestly think he deserves a pass on this one. UPDATE: Also via Glenn Reynolds, Extreme Mortman has a huge photo display on the subject of Islamic fascists. Notes Mortman, For the President, that description is rare and recent.Under the circumstances, giving him a pass is the least we can do. I'm thinking that maybe I should upgrade the "pass" to something more along the lines of a "THANK YOU." UPDATE: Professor Burgess-Jackson has updated his post by offering the following syllogism: 1. All fascists are statists (by which I mean people who assign intrinsic moral significance to the state).I think the syllogism fails because it is simply not true that "No Muslims are statists." That Iran and Saudi Arabia are Islamic states, run by Muslims who are by definition statists is a fact so obvious that I don't think it requires further debate. Here's Dean Esmay, in a comment to the Burgess-Jackson post: I've been calling it "islamic fascism" or "religious fascism" or just plain "fascism" for years, and strongly urging others to do the same. It is a perfectly appropriate term to describe the philosophy and brings with it a desperately needed moral clarity. This is why I am utterly delighted to see that the President has finally adopted it himself.Well said, Dean! UPDATE: Forgot to link the photos -- some of which came from this incredibly cool site -- which also features this all-time classic example of -- dare I say it? -- Islamic fascism! Heil Khalifah, baby! MORE: If there are no Islamic fascists, could someone please explain why Islamists would name their sons "Hitler"? Sentimental reasons, perhaps? But- but- but- "Der fuhrer never said baby!" (To which I say, "picky, picky, picky!") posted by Eric on 08.10.06 at 06:03 PM
Comments
Nazism includes a strong component of fascism, but of course fascism is not Nazism. My problem with restricting the term "fascism" to the Mussolini version is it would render it all but unusable. I think it can be a helpful handle in describing certain types of governments. Statism is often too broad a category to aid much in discussion. Eric Scheie · August 10, 2006 09:12 PM Eric: I agree. I would describe many European governments and politicans as statist but not fascist. There is a good deal of overlap, but it isn't total. Jon Thompson · August 10, 2006 10:29 PM It is not so much the State structure per se that characterizes totalitarianism as it is governance. In Nazi Germany and the Communist countries, the Party ruled (and rules) the government. The SS was never a government agency, but a Nazi Party one. Everything they ran, from a soft-drink factory to the camps, was on the NSDAP books, not the government ones. This hardly made the Reich any less totalitarian. Much the same situation results from Leninism and Ba'athism. Also, a religious cult had the upper hand in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, and it was very tightly run from the top. It is the relationship between the State and the standard-bearers of the ideology that determines the existence of Fascism or any other totalitarian rule. Bleepless · August 11, 2006 02:50 PM The Ummah is spoken of by Muslims as one nation or sometimes as one people. There is certainly a popuar desire among Muslims for a restored Caliphate. If either the Ummah or the desired Caliphate can be thought of as a putative theocratic state, in a sense of the word understood by Muslims if not by non-Muslims, then perhaps one can indeed use the term 'fascism' in this case. Prodicus · August 11, 2006 07:28 PM Huh? Islamists aren’t trying to create a state in which all the parts work as one; their ultimate goal is a stateless world in which everyone worships Allah. A world of ONE STATE is still ONE STATE. It isn't as if they'll allow a group within to form a seperate one. How is this different from Hitler's desires for an Aryan Nation? Islamic Nation/Aryan Nation. Banana/Bawnawnaw. Sorry... caught in some sort of mind twist cannot compute loop. [Booking flight back to the planet earth.] If they aren't fascists then Hitler wasn't a fascist. Grand Stand · August 12, 2006 01:43 AM "Mind twist cannot compute loop" is exactly what it is. Perhaps the confusion results from the idea that the spiritual is not the physical, and that therefore a true theocracy cannot be statist. That once we all "submit," all politics and all states will disappear. Again, like the "withering away" of the Communist State. Eric Scheie · August 12, 2006 09:40 AM They are the same people, politics aside-- the first people who were 'terrorists' were the Jacobins -- definitely leftists -- and are the communist nations not statist? Worship of 'the Revolution'? So to see national ANSWER supporting Islamic Fascism is not strange at all. My argument is, since communism is only an economic system, and demands something of people that most people would not do willingly -- it came into the hands of Statists/Fascists and was used accordingly. So-- Iran: Economics-Feudal Politics-Fascist USSR: Economics-Communist Politics-Fascist. My thought is this-- there are spheres of a culture as discussed in anthropology, politics and economy are two of them. So while Fascism in Mussolini's Italy was both political and economic, it need not be so. The Fascist statism political structure can be encorporated with the same gripping devastation with other economic systems. I think when we look at societies, the Nazis included we have to not only look at the whole but the parts. The spheres I can think of are (There might be a sixth?) When talking about a system (like communism) we must consider what spheres it controls. Any spheres it doesn't control/effect could be supplanted with parts from another system. Unsuccessfully, too. I think that might be helpful in analyzing the societies in Iran, Nazi Germany, USSR, et al. RiverCocytus · August 14, 2006 01:12 PM As an aside, if we look at it this way, then we can have a potential system involving ANY religion and statist politics. Not to say it will be a good, effective or useful combination... Oil money does buy a bad societal system SOME time. RiverCocytus · August 14, 2006 01:15 PM |
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My working supposition is that for the vast majority of the unwashed public, facism equals Nazism. Which means that calling someone a facist means they're a member of the SS. The deeper, statist, meanings matter only to us anoraks.